Auto Diesel for Jet

[shakescreek]

Anthony, mine has never been on a dyno. I am using impeller curves from the pump manufacturer and rpm to estimate horsepower.I take it you are skeptical on the 1.9's ability to put out this power. The 1.9tdi I am running was rated at 160hp stock by VW. I have seen the dyno charts from several 1.9's that have done over 300hp on the dyno however I don't think they would last long if run continuous at that kind of power level. I will not run mine at more 150hp output for more than a few seconds at a time to pop a heavy load up on step. I have run it at 150hp output going by the impeller power absorption chart for 4 to 5 hours continuous with no problems but anything above that the egt's get a little to high for my liking.

[jbmboats]

shakescreek,
do you have any more info on the vw tdi install
pix,specs,marine stuff like wet ex,ecm/ecu
we would like to build a few small light diesels but here in the good ol usa
there are zero small light diesel's in the marine side that meet our epa specs
yes guys that feel the need to chime in and tell me that there are diesels for sale in the usa that meet epa i already know this.
but they are not LIGHT and SMALL
they are if you are building a big jet boat 18' and over but we only build small
under 16'. so we are always looking for new ideas on this line
thanks

[shakescreek]

The boat is a home-built welded aluminum.18'6", .125 5456-H116, 5' bottom,10* deadrise with 12" pad down the middle,reverse chines, 32" sides, beam is about 7' I think. The engine I bought from an autowrecker in the UK from an 2005 Seat Ibiza Cupra(division of VW) engine code bpx and was rated at 160hp stock.Running a garrett gtb2056vl turbo from a volvo at 30psi of boost with a custom software remap from a friend in Belgium.Built my own 4into1 stainless header and am running the exhaust dry. VW sells a marine version of the 1.9 so I am sure the water cooled ex manifold from it would fit but would likely be expensive and I don't know how well it would flow. Engine ready to run with all accessories except for the heat exchanger is 350lbs. The engine was emission certified for europe 2005 model year but I'm sure that doesn't count over here. I'm so far out in the bush I don't have to worry about emissions certifications. I have no road access to my home and the nearest town big enough to have a bank or a hardware store is 500 miles away. My boat is my main transportation for 6 months of the year so it must be reliable and fuel is expensive and must be hauled in so fuel economy is a priority. So far I've been very happy with the VW tdi. Great balance of power and economy.

[Boston]

I keep thinking mercedes 300 older IDI diesel as I read this thread

[jbmboats]

Originally Posted by shakescreek

The boat is a home-built welded aluminum.18'6", .125 5456-H116, 5' bottom,10* deadrise with 12" pad down the middle,reverse chines, 32" sides, beam is about 7' I think. The engine I bought from an autowrecker in the UK from an 2005 Seat Ibiza Cupra(division of VW) engine code bpx and was rated at 160hp stock.Running a garrett gtb2056vl turbo from a volvo at 30psi of boost with a custom software remap from a friend in Belgium.Built my own 4into1 stainless header and am running the exhaust dry. VW sells a marine version of the 1.9 so I am sure the water cooled ex manifold from it would fit but would likely be expensive and I don't know how well it would flow. Engine ready to run with all accessories except for the heat exchanger is 350lbs. The engine was emission certified for europe 2005 model year but I'm sure that doesn't count over here. I'm so far out in the bush I don't have to worry about emissions certifications. I have no road access to my home and the nearest town big enough to have a bank or a hardware store is 500 miles away. My boat is my main transportation for 6 months of the year so it must be reliable and fuel is expensive and must be hauled in so fuel economy is a priority. So far I've been very happy with the VW tdi. Great balance of power and economy.

sounds like a nice boat for your needs there light and good on fuel
down here in the u.s. a motor that meets epa in a car/truck still needs to be retested when it is in the marine form and this can cost alot
so these smaller gas/diesel marine motors are hard to find here
to many idiots here that think bigger is better
i need to ask them for a nice day of jet boating when we get stuck 120 miles from nothing and let them do all the pushing in there 2500 lb gas V8

do you have any pix of you set up ? would be nice to see

[shakescreek]

Do they actually make you get your boats tested down there or can the homebuilder just building a single boat for his own use still get away with putting any engine he chooses in? I agree having a boat that is not to heavy is a big plus when you get it stuck by yourself or with just your wife and kid along and your a long way from anywhere. I would estimate mine weighs about 1300lbs empty and with a typical fuel mileage of 10 to 12 mpg average upstream and downstream, the fuel doesn't make up a large percentage of the load. I rarely carry more than 20gals for a 200 mile round trip run. As for pictures I'm sure I have a few around but I have never had much success getting them into a post on a forum. Not very computer knowledgeable I'm afraid.

[jbmboats]

for a new boat that is built by a boat builder that meets epa and coast guard
specs we have to use motors that comply.
but for the back yard builder they can use any motor they like
this sucks for us down here but thank god our government is here to look after us stupid little sheep

[crowsridge]

Shakescreek, that is facinating! Id like to know more about that VW1.9. The ones here are only rated at 100hp and sending in the fuel pump to exchange for a manual pump will come back with 30% more they claim. I need to find one with the hp already there like yours. Im building a 20' sled with a pump drive.

Thanks, Chris

[shakescreek]

Chris, there are 3 main types of the vw 1.9tdi. The ve type are the older engines with a bosch ve (distributor or rotary style) pump. They came in north america only in a 90hp version and in europe they were available up to 110 I believe. These are the only ones you can convert to a manual pump to get away from the electronics. You can get these up to maybe 160-170hp with just injectors and a turbo. Going much higher on them will require beefed up internals and will start to get expensive. The pd engines came out in I think about 99 or 2000 in europe and 2004.5 in north america. They use unit injectors with the high pressure pump(30,000psi pressure) built into each injector and driven by an extra set of cam lobes. You cannot convert these to manual and get rid of the electronics. They came in europe with up to 170hp but the na versions only came in a 100hp version. The pd engines have a stronger bottom end than the ve's with the 130hp and up versions being the strongest with beefed up cranks, rods, and pistons. They also have a cast oil galery in the pistons to help cool the crowns.As well the pd's have a better flowing head than the ve's. The 150 and 160hp versions also have a lower compression ratio which allows for more boost. If you start with a 150 or 160pd you can get up to about 230 to 250hp with just a turbo change and a software remap. The 150 and 160pd's are identical mechanically. The 170hp pd uses piezo injectors and a siemens ecu instead of a bosch. I don't think anyone has figured out how remap these ecu's yet so if you want anything more than stock they might be a little hard to work with. The newest version was increased to an even 2 liters with a 1.5mm bore increase and changed to a common rail injection system. These came out in north america in 2009 with 140ish hp. You cannot get rid of the electronics on these either and very little is available on the aftermarket for them yet. There is also a 170 hp version of these in europe. In my opinion the best one to start with is the 150 or 160hp pd. I used a 160pd which I bought from an auto wrecker in the UK and had shipped over. If you check the euro wrecking yards for a low mileage engine the engine codes are as follows.
engine code ASZ, AVF, AWX or BLT= 130hp.
engine code ARL or BTB = 150hp
engine code BPX or BUK = 160hp.
If you decide to go this route I would suggest you change the turbo out to a garrett gtb2056vl(comes from a 2006 or newer volvo 2.4l 5cyl. diesel). You will need more air flow to keep egt's and emp's at acceptable levels if you are going to run at more than 120hp or so continous for long periods of time and want your engine to last. You will also need to change the stock 3bar map sensor out for a 4bar one so the ecu can read the increased boost. Hope this helps. I don't think you will be sorry if you do it, I just love mine.
Laurie.

[Submarine Tom]

Chris, I'd like to reiterate Laurie's comment on the hp limit when it comes to the type of loading boats impose. Sticking to moderate, stock hp outputs will be your best bet in a boat. Modifications to draw out more hp will result in earlier failure of the engine. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for the turbo idea, I think it's the way to go in your case, but resist "the more is better" temptation or I think you'll be disappointed in the long run.

-Tom

[shakescreek]

Well it's true that boats tend to put a much more severe load on an engine than autos do they also have the advantage of pretty much unlimited cooling both for the coolant and oil as well as the for intercooler in the case of turboed engines. With a good air to water intercooler intake air temperatures can easily be kept well below ambient which is impossible in an air to air set up typically used in cars. This can help considerably in keeping combustion temps down. If you look at some of the marine offerings based on auto engines they are often rated at higher power levels in the marine versions than in the auto counterparts. For example vw offers a marine version of their 3.0l v6 tdi and 4.2l v8 tdi with 260hp and 350hp respectively. The auto versions of the same engines are offered with maximum ratings of 230hp and 320hp, and volvos all aluminum 2.4 5cyl is only offered at 185hp in a car but at 220hp in the marine version. I tend to think it is safe to crank up the power on a diesel as long as you have proper gauges to monitor things like boost, emp, and egt. In some ways diesels tend to be the opposite of a gasser. With a gasser fuel cools, the leaner you run them the hotter the egt's get and at some point you will start to get detonation and destroy the engine. On a diesel it is just the opposite, for a given amount of fuel the more air you can get in the cooler they will run. Thats why a bigger turbo will bring down the egt's if you don't increase the fueling correspondingly. A jet boat also has the advantage of running against a fixed power absortion curve, so unlike a prop as long as you have the impeller matched correctly it is impossible to lug the engine. The load will stay the same on the engine regardless of how much weight you put in the boat. I try and find a turbo that will give me the airflow I need to keep egt's below 1100*f and at the same time keep the emp's below the boost level. So far it has worked out well for me with about 750 hours on the little 1.9 with zero issues. As mention earlier though I don't run it at more than 150hp output for more than short bursts.

[crowsridge]

My plans show the acceptable hp for the boat is 40-125. Now the ME says that is a conservative number, but sticks with it. I am going with the sanctioned 2' extension for 20'.

So, if I could get a stock 150ish TD, offset the extra length and the loss of the jet, I should be just right? My wife was reading the above to me while we were driving home. I will reread the post and figure out where to get the 150..

Thanks a bunch! Chris

[shakescreek]

Sounds like it should work out well for you Chris. If you find an engine make sure you get the wiring harness, ecu and throttle position sensor along with it. Not impossible to make your own harness from scratch but much easier to just modify the original one. What kind of hull are you building, is this a welded aluminum riverboat?
Laurie.

[crowsridge]

Laurie,

This one is a fiberglass over marine plywood, mahogany frame. I talked to a guy who imports the German engines. (didnt have much luck searching the web in EU) I talked to him before. He said he can get those 4 coded engines that you mention. But, he says they are prone to cam problems and can offer better alternatives.

When I get the design bugs all worked out and I build my aluminum welding skills, I want to make it out of aluminum.

[shakescreek]

Yes there has been some cam failures on the pd's. There is an ongoing debate in the tdi community as to whether it is really a problem or not. VW says there has been only a small number of failures and it's a bit hard to tell from internet info as those that have a problem are likely to post it, well those that get a few hundred thousand trouble free miles will likely never post. As far as I can tell most of the failures have been in north american cars with the failure rate being much higher on the brm engine code than on the bew engines. Some feel it is a design problem, some fell it was bad metallurgy in a batch of cams. And some feel it is related to the vw oil specs which have had most of the zinc and phosphorous removed for emissions reasons. Most of the failures seem to have occurred on vw spec oils well the API CI4+ and CJ4 spec oils seem to have a pretty good record so far. I have been running mobil tdt 5-40 in mine and have no discernible cam wear with 20,000 miles on the engine when I got it and 750 hours in the boat. If your engine guy feels he has better alternatives I would be very interested to know which engines they are. If you want to do some reading on the vw tdi's try http://forums.tdiclub.com/. Great source of information with some very knowledgeable folks on it. Ryanp on there could probably source some engines from europe for you to.
Laurie.