Solomon Technologies - "Electric Wheel" electric motor propulsion systems

Discussion in 'Hybrid' started by lockhughes, Jun 18, 2002.

  1. Sander Rave
    Joined: May 2005
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    Location: Amsterdam; The Netherlands

    Sander Rave Senior Member

    If anybody has experience with the magic wheel.

    I think the hardwear isn't so much different from other sollutions, one thing I am interrested in is the controller. I have little time lately, hope to investigate all points made in this thread in the weekend...

    One E drive I was impressed by at the Mets was Bellman. The guy had a pretty well worked out system. It is plain old simple engineering on the hardwear, and a thought through controller. which also points out your powerconsumption, battery load and estemated sailing time left by given speed.

    Diferent power combinations could be made, and different configurations, including a diesel/electric hybrid.
     
  2. rxcomposite
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    Location: Philippines

    rxcomposite Senior Member

    Cyclops,

    You maybe referring to a souped up engine or referring to the peak horsepower developed after ignition stroke. Any good mechanic whether ICE or Electric/Electronic can coax more power out of a motor. However, it voids the warranty or shorten the life of the motor.

    I am speaking in general terms. I am not speaking for a specific engine manufacturer or engine tuner.

    Electric Motors are guided by a National Standard, probably NEMA in the U.S. One of the specifications that relates to our topic to quote,

    “SF (Service Factor) a measure of the reserve margin built into the motor. Motors rated over 1.0 SF have more than normal margin, and are used where unusual conditions such as occasional high or low voltage, momentary overload, ect., are likely to occur.”

    Electrical windings do create heat but soon reaches its stable operating temperature. Adding more “juice” or loadings will take some time before “thermal runaway” takes place. Electrics are mostly thermally protected, either by impedance winding, manual reset, or T-stat. The lifespan of the motor is limited by the field winding temperature. These are “engineered in” by the manufacturer depending on the type of duty/application.

    Marine propulsion engines are rated in a top down manner. The Hp is fixed at a given rated RPM. It is fixed by a mechanical governor or ECU. That means, without alteration to the engine (which will void the warranty), it is the maximum Hp. that can be extracted, no more, no less. That maximum Hp. is still further governed by the ratings such as high performance, intermittent, or continuous duty. Other engine manufactures stretch it up to more. Very roughly, they say, “you can extract the maximum Hp. only 8% of the time (high performance duty) or shorten mean time between overhaul”. Expect the diesel engine to be bulky and very heavy if it is for continuous duty with high loading factor.

    The only time the two types of motor/ engine comes close to comparison is when the IC engine is rated as MC (Maximum Continuous). This in effect is like saying, this is a 450Hp. engine but you can use only 414 Hp. The 36 Hp. power reserve is for unusual operating condition you can use 8% of the time.

    Rx
     
  3. rxcomposite
    Joined: Jan 2005
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    Location: Philippines

    rxcomposite Senior Member

    If i rememeber my high school physics right, if two dissimilar metals are immersed in a brine solution, current flows. The whole sea is then one large electrolyte. Maybe we can extract current from it?
     
  4. trouty

    trouty Guest

    You are right!

    :idea:
    .

    Theres no doubting your right.

    However.

    You've forgotten Lee and Yangs nobel prize.

    You guys really need to study Beardens MEG (Motionless Electromagnetic Generator) explanations, at www.cheniere.org

    Free energy from the Vacuum of space...really the energy comes from - the domain of time (which if you understood what 'time' really is:- ergo - A form of energy - you would quit looking at the 'obvious' and start to look at the not so obvious which Tesla did all that time ago.)

    Tesla's ideas didn't go to the grave with him at all.

    Many now work diligently away at this energy problem. There are many renewable sources of energy we know of already such as wind and solar, but there are others - we refuse to believe in - even tho Lee and Yangs nobel prize back in 1957? clearly showed the potential of these other forms of energy.

    Why do we not believe until someone else does all the work for us?

    We complain - when the world is run by an oil oligarchy - yet we are too scared to believe in anything other than oil - even when for example nuclear powers been around so long.

    We will ignore these alternative energy sources, until someone else - does all the work for us, and by then they will own the technology (i.e energy source) and we will still be in just the same position.

    Has anyone thought:-

    What if our enemys do the hard yards while we wrack the world over the last few drops of oil?

    DO you guys in the USA not want to STAY as the worlds numba 1 nation?

    You look forward to the time when the Iranians or Ruskies or China - control the NEXT form of energy the world will rely on?

    Could be an interesting future - if ya'll don't wake up soon!

    Cheers!
     
  5. trouty

    trouty Guest

    Just to make you think!

    http://www.rexresearch.com/hubbard/hubbard.htm

    What about Hubbards coil generator for use in a boat?

    Not like it hasn't already been done!

    I wonder who buried THAT technology?

    World oil Oilgrachy maybe?:?:

    Cheers!;)
     
  6. trouty

    trouty Guest

    More thinking!

    http://www.altenergy-pro.com/device09-2.htm

    You see theres LOTS of these ideas around...but for some weird reason they never get legs and run.

    Who could possibly have a reason to thwart such inventions?

    Who could benefit fiscally if they don't?

    Can anyone say world oil oligarchy?

    Now lemme see - theres a Jakel engine as well somewhere...

    Cheers
     
  7. trouty

    trouty Guest

    Crikey - we even have an upside down version!

    http://www.lutec.com.au/

    We even have one down under, albeit an uppside down one!

    Cheers!
     
  8. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    overunity eh?
    offcourse there is or we would not be here
     
  9. trouty

    trouty Guest

    I count you Yipster

    As one of the more progressive thinkers on this site.:)

    As you know - we've been down this road before.

    M = Δ T and all that!

    Maybe I'll expound upon my Time theory's a little more.

    The darn puter crashes a bit - so gimme a little time (no deliberate pun intended), to get the info up - best if I do it in word - then cut n paste (theres that dirty word again...) once I have it how I want it.

    OK - so how do I enable HTML code within my text so I can use the DELTA (Meaning - Change in) symbol? i.e - 'change' in Time, Mass = Change in Time (M = Delta T).?

    Cheers!
     
  10. RThompson
    Joined: Nov 2004
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    Location: New Zealand

    RThompson Senior Member

    Yeah, thats a REALLY good idea.
    I tried that a year or two ago. Ruined my life. Read through his site, that led to other sites. Then someone offered me some Noam Chomsky at a party - just casual like, "between friends" he said (an innoculous little book called Media Control). Well that led to harder stuff.
    Now I struggle to hold down a decent conversation without turning to global doom and gloom about apathetic and ignorant populations, oil, the Great Terrorism Lie and its mate The Great Democracy Joke, Bush and his boss's, etc etc...

    I'v been reduced to a cynic randomly twitching in a dark corner while I plot to overthrow the world.
    Ignorance is (in fact) bliss.

    ps the revolution will not be televised.
     
  11. yipster
    Joined: Oct 2002
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    Location: netherlands

    yipster designer

    ♪ ♪ ♪♪♪♪ studying prisms arrow down = naval expression for displacement, ofcourse seeing it from that side.... ♪ ♪ ♪♪♪♪
     
  12. Deering
    Joined: Feb 2005
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    Location: Juneau, Alaska

    Deering Senior Member

    Oooowww... my head hurts!

    Consider this - a standard car engine uses about 20% of the energy in gasoline to actually move the car. The rest is lost as heat and noise energy. A typical car and occupant weight about 4,000 lbs. A 200 lbs body represents 5% of that mass.

    Let's do the math. 20% of 5% = 1%. We use 1% of the energy available in gasoline to actually move our body down the road. Pretty pathetic, eh? Now consider a 20,000 lbs boat - the numbers get 5X worse!

    Whether it's Trouty's vacuum or solar cells... we can do better.
     
  13. JonathanCole
    Joined: May 2005
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    Location: Hawaii

    JonathanCole imagineer

    I'm workin on the belt pack antigravity device. Deering is right. If we just get rid of the vehicle we hardly need any energy at all!! Probably get by with a 9 volt battery. Although some of our Dutch compatriots have discovered enough energy in one burning spliff to astral travel!!:D
     

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  14. trouty

    trouty Guest

    Trust me I know how you feel!

    I know how you feel, trust me I do!

    There are days I twitch so bad I feel like Quasimodo! (Usually after a lengthy read of Sherman Skolnicks website - Noam Chomsky's got nuttin on ol Sherman!)

    Anyway - speakin of Quasimodo - reminds me of an ol Quasimodo joke.;)

    Quasi is getting a long a little in years and his twitching's got worse 'n worse over the years, so much so - that the clergy are now worried about him flitting around the belfry, in case he twiches while he's leaping on or off - the bells to make em ring and loses his grip and falls to his death. The new occupational health and safety laws, 'duty of care' rules really have 'em worried, since they can all be held personally responsible for any injury Quasi suffers, if they haven't recognized the risks & taken steps to identify the dangers and eliminate them from his workplace.

    So - they get this bright idea- that maybe they need to send ol' Quasimodo - on a holiday!

    Well - that’s, all well 'n good - but who the heck's - going to ring the bells on Sunday?

    So - they put an advert on the Church of Notredame notice board, saying "relief Bell ringer wanted!".

    A few days later - they hear this deafening banging on the Church door, Bang, Bang - Bang bang, and so it goes, until the priest opens the door - only to find - the Thalidomide twins standing there, bangin' their foreheads in unison on the door, because - neither of em has any arms! (They are in fact - totally armless!)

    What's up he says?

    Well - we've come to apply for the relief bell ringer's job!

    How the heck - ya gunna do that?" says the priest - "neither of you - has any arms (or hence hands) with which to pull on the bell ropes?"

    "Well - ya can't discriminate against us because were handicapped", offered the pair, "coz its against the anti discrimination laws!" they quipped! 'What about give us a trial, and if you like the tunes we ring - then let us have the job - after all - it's only for a couple weeks!".

    "Fair enough" says the priest! "Give it ya best shot!".

    Well - off up to the belfry - goes the two thalidomide twins, and in unison - just like the Parish door, they take turns to head butt the various bells in the belfry - and ring out - the "Bells of St Clemens" in perfect timing and tune!.

    Everyone in the town is amazed at the tune - and how nice it is - including the clergy - so what the heck - they give the two armless thalidomide twins - the relief bell ringers job, while Quasi's on holidays getting over his twitch!

    (Not a very healthy bunch these French crew are they?):D

    Anyway, to cut a long story short, (you reckon?):p , the next days a Sunday - and the two relief bell ringer thalidomide twins are up in the belfry making a racket with the bells and havin' a wow of a time. Just at that moment - Ol Quasi's walking down the foootpath past the church with his two suitcases, headed for the train station - to start his holiday.

    Right at that very instant - one of the twins - miss times his head butt of a bell - and trips on a loose board in the belfry, loses his balance and runs full tilt at the railing around the belfry. With no arms to stop himself - the railing takes out his feet from under him, and he does the ol' one and a half pike with a one and a half twist - out into open air!

    His brother can see this happening, as if in slow motion - he races across - to try and intercept his hapless brother, and prevent his tragic accident - but alas, he too - trips on the loose board - and like his brother before him - takes the swan dive, straight out into thin air over the railing, after arriving a split second too late to save his hapless armless thalidomide twin brother!

    Well - the first brother, does a face plant - into the concrete footpath (Thud) - right in front of the local Gendarme (French Policeman), and a split second later - the second twin does the exact same thing (Another thud!).

    Bemused and confused - the Gendarme looks across at Quasimodo, who by now is passing with his suitcases in tow, "Lifts" the first brothers head up to try and identify him and says " Hey Quasi?" - " You got any idea who this armless fella is?".

    To which Quasi replys…

    "Nahhh - no idea - never seen 'im before in my life - but Geez - his face sure rings a bell!" (Boom boom!)

    The Gendarme - lifts the second twins head up in an effort to identify him, and again looks across at Quasi and asks 'Well - what about this armless fella then - any idea who he is?"

    "Nahhh" says Quasi "But he sure is a dead ringer for his brother!" Boom Boom!

    Jeeze I love Quasimodo Jokes!:rolleyes:

    Cheers!
     

  15. lockhughes
    Joined: Jun 2002
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    Location: Wards Island Toronto north shore, Lake Ontario

    lockhughes ElectricGuy

    Jan 2005 Power & Motoryacht article on Diesel-Electrics

    Original URL here:
    http://www.powerandmotoryacht.com/engines/0105dieselelectric/

    The Next Big Thing

    Is diesel-electric power finally going to get its day in the sun?

    January 2005

    Diesel-electric power has been around for a while, and though it isn’t widely used in yachts and pleasureboats, it has proven itself as an efficient means of propulsion in military and research vessels. Advantages such as increased control, improved fuel efficiency, longer engine life, and lower maintenance costs have made this hybrid system the power of choice in these fields. The question facing yacht builders and owners is whether those benefits outweigh the system’s additional cost.

    The idea of using an engine to power a genset that in turn creates propulsion was initially used in locomotives and ships by General Electric in the early 20th century, and in World War I diesel-electric power gained more momentum. U-boats were some of the first diesel-electric military vessels, but surface ships also had adopted it by the onset of World War II. Today the U.S. Navy employs an updated version of diesel-electric power to help fulfill the demanding electrical requirements of modern warships, as do most cruise ships and commercial and research vessels.

    The concept is simple enough: engines powering gensets that both provide propulsion via electric motors and electrical power to a busbar. Thus two formerly independent functions, propulsion and onboard electrical power, can be controlled by a single system. In essence, the genset operates the entire boat, from moving her through the water to flushing the MSDs.

    Removing the engines from the prop shafts has an additional benefit: They can run at optimum efficiency while shaft revolutions are regulated by variable-speed electric motors. This increases engine life, since they are never under- or overloaded. An additional bonus is that by removing the marine gears altogether and the prop shafts from the engines, you get much quieter propulsion.

    Yachts can and do reap these benefits. Two that currently employ this system are the 414-foot Octopus and the 315-foot Limitless. Their large sizes are not coincidental. Ken Robbins, president of Marine Propulsion, says, “When the energy required to power a ship’s auxiliary systems is equal to or greater than what it takes to propel it, then diesel-electric is a logical choice.”

    Because of their complexity, diesel-electric systems are heavy and take up a lot of space.

    Engineers refer to the energy required by these auxiliary systems, ranging from air conditioning to high-tech cinema setups, as “hotel load.” On most yachts this figure is a fraction of what is required to actually propel the boat. On warships, cruise liners, and, in this case Octopus, hotel loads either approach or exceed what’s required to move the boat. In the case of Limitless, however, the reasons for using diesel-electric power go deeper.

    Limitless doesn’t require nearly as much auxiliary power as she does propulsion power. Therefore she employs a hybrid system that utilizes both straight diesel inboard drives and diesel-electric drives to deliver a whopping 22,000 hp and a reported top speed of 27.5 knots. According to Capt. Craig Tafoya, Limitless’ project manager, “It is this top speed that mandated the use of diesel-electric. Conventional diesels [that could achieve this speed] were so high strung that, when [at] idle speed [they] would never let us go below 16 knots. The diesel-electric option allowed for precision control while maneuvering (once the primary diesels were disengaged) and provided us with redundancy—we had backup propulsion if the main engines were lost.” Such redundancy is a huge advantage for any yacht using diesel-electric. In an emergency the output from any number of gensets can be combined to supply propulsion to electric motors to get you home.

    But all this comes at a price. Because of their complexity, diesel-electric systems are heavy and take up a lot of space. Vripak International, a Dutch naval architecture firm, estimates the average weight penalty at two to five percent more than a conventional system, due to the additional gensets, electric motors, and frequency converters. However, diesel-electric does provide flexibility in engine and genset placement. The engines no longer have to be inline with the shafts, and gensets, and converters can be placed virtually anywhere. This ability to position equipment at the designer’s (and owner’s) discretion has significant advantages when it comes to trim characteristics of the boat and the spaciousness of guest quarters. No longer does the engine room have to occupy that critical space amidships where the beam is widest, and heavy components can be positioned to achieve optimum running angle.

    As to cost, Dick Boone of Vripak estimates materials alone add 15 percent to the total price of a diesel-electric boat, a figure somewhat offset by the greater fuel efficiency and longevity of a properly loaded diesel engine. Boone states, “On average a conventional engine running at 30 percent of rated power suffers a fuel penalty of 36 percent.” Diesel-electric allows engines to run at optimum efficiency continuously, thus negating that fuel penalty. The payback time for such savings is, of course, proportional to how much the yacht is used. Vripak compares a prototype 160-foot motoryacht with conventional diesels to one with diesel-electric. At 9 knots the conventional diesels actually had 12 percent better fuel efficiency. At 12 knots the two systems rated the same. At 15 knots the diesel-electric was an impressive 15 percent more efficient, plus the engines emitted less nitrogen oxides and carbon dioxide.

    So which yachts could benefit from diesel-electric? Well, the larger the better. The more space a yacht has to accommodate the hardware and the closer its auxiliary power requirements are to its propulsion demands, the better the candidate. Lürssen, the German yard that built Octopus and Limitless, says a yacht should be at least 250 feet, while Vripak has found advantages in a 160-foot test vessel.

    So why don’t more owners chose diesel-electric propulsion? Many do, but only a few owners can afford to build over 160 feet. Still, over the last two decades the use of diesel-electric has increased by 250 percent, according to Daniel Reinhardt, senior press manager at MTU, though he admits the number of yachts using diesel-electric 20 years ago was small. But builders and owners tend to stick with what they know. Working with an unfamiliar system like diesel-electric can be costly, and owners may not see or be attracted to the eventual savings. Owners won’t invest until the cost of diesel electric comes down, and until that happens, there may not be enough diesel-electric yachts to prove the system works in pleasureboats.

    However, the 2004 Fort Lauderdale Boat Show revealed some interesting trends, among them that more builders are integrating all the systems on their boats. Diesel-electric power does that with propulsion and auxiliary systems and allows an owner to monitor and control everything from one automated program. Imagine powering up your entire vessel from a single touchscreen. Diesel-electric lets you do that, which is why it just may be the future of marine power.

    The reasons to power smaller craft with diesel-electric may soon become more compelling. In 1999 FAST Electric Yacht Systems was founded in Houston, Texas, with the aim of adapting reliable diesel-electric power to any boat, regardless of size. Using technology developed by Siemens for German electric buses, FAST developed a diesel-electric system for boats with power requirements as small 50 hp.

    One of the first boats to be fitted with the system is April K, a 1995 Ocean Alexander Classico 423, whose power went from twin Caterpillar 3208s to a single Cummins B220. According to her owner, Paul Smith, April K’s fuel economy increased by 22 percent, maintenance costs were halved, and he had 35 percent more engine space.

    When I asked Smith why he would install an arguably more complicated system that flies in the face of conventional marine thinking, he said, “There is nothing in your face about this technology. It’s being proven all around us: New York City buses, South Florida water taxis, smart cars, and golf carts all use this technology.” Besides, the results speak for themselves. Who wouldn’t do this?” —C.C.
    FAST Electric Yacht Systems((713) 952-9908. www.feys.org.

    Hmmmmm.... I see I haven't been alongside here since April 2005...
    Yikes - "20829 unread posts since your last visit"

    You guys have been busy!

    Fair winds and following seas
    LoCk


    In 2002, and 135 messages ago, I wrote:
     
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