Solomon Technologies - "Electric Wheel" electric motor propulsion systems

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Kay9

... that while electric looks promising it isnt about the way you convert energy into propulsion its about the way/medium you store the energy to create that propulsion.

I tend to agree with you there, it's the stowage thing we really need to solve. Reference this discussion http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=85848&postcount=163 and some of the others in this sort of 'far out' subject thread http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9630[

I am presently restoring a 60' double ender and I have been considering electric as a form of aux prop. Lee shores scare the hell out of me, and I would sure hate to have dead batts, underpowered electric motor.

I would ask that you reread over this discussion by Glacier Bay http://www.ossapowerlite.com/tech_library/fuel_efficiency/fuel_efficiency.htm One of the basics here is to match the generation of electrical power with the electric propulsion motor such that a large 'stowage medium' (batteries) isn't needed. And the permanent magnet DC units that allow for this to happen as opposed to AC systems.

but I just dont see this as an affordable alternative to a Diesel Aux.

Granted, it's not exactly cheap is it.

[Kay9]

Well I have a 25 Ton 60' schooner. the rig is Gaff and I cant get any closer the about 30 deg to windward. So if you have some magic trick other then an Aux engine to get me off the Lee of the Oregon coast when its blowing 20Knts from the NNW Im all ears.

[Kay9]

Brian.
I did find the discussions about converting Metalhydrides into hydrogen very intresting. A bit new yet for me to consider risking my life on. Also Im a bit concerned about the thermic (sp?) reaction when adding water to the mixture. I would think, your tanks would get very hot during the conversion back into hydrogen. I wouldnt know though.

[Kay9]

I read your links there Brian, you make a very compelling arguement, or rather the paper you linked dose, about the loading aspects of the Aux diesel engine and the resultant fuel savings.

In yours, or someone's opinion what size electric motor would be required to replace a diesel aux. in a 60' 23ton vessel? 6-8knts appearent would be acceptable in speed I think.

[eveready]

Trouty - you made my night. I just stumbled onto this brainstorm and you solved a problem that has driven me nuts for years. Why do batteries run down faster than I can explain through load loss and the third law of thermodynamics. I knew deep inside that the loss should not manifest to the apparent degree, considering the ammount of electrons returned to the battery as the circuit was completed and there came the epiphany --- the returning electrons upset the polarity of the battery when they appear on the wrong side. DUHH! It's like washing my hands at work where we have only a five gallon water heater. By the time I use two gallons or so, the cold water running into the heater is already cooling the output noticeably. If I could shut off the intake to the heater I'd have access to five full gallons to degrease my hands not the two I presently have. Your MEG does just that but lets the heat out of the tank but not any appreciable flow of hot water. There is not even any need to reheat the water!!!!!!!! WATTA WIZARD or is it Water wizard? Anyway, I'll rehash your wordy digression and wait for more. EVEREADY

[eveready]

Originally Posted by ewhel

Well folks, I wonder how many users run their 18HP Yanmar at 3,600 RPM's continuously(13.4KW). That's where it is rated at! Can you run it there continuously? Negative. What HP can you run it at continuously? (HINT...about about 15 for the first year or two) What is the hp load of a fully charged battery VS a partially charged battery that just started a diesel engine loaded with VHF, depth finder, radio and a couple lights turned on. Does Yanmar use those super efficient transmissions when selling product to Hunter, Catalina or J. ?
I too was amazed when I took a 22hp diesel out of my boat and put a 10HP electric motor in and had significantly more power and response. It sent me back to the white board to calculate why. I found out that there is the advertised perfect world...and then there is reality. Our HP and efficiencies are Pure,not over stated, at the prop and will be the same 10 years from now as they are today. They push the prop directly without transmissions (except the Electric Wheel that uses a transmission only for slow speeds and it is frictionally eliminated a cruise).
Battery Cycles...typically depleting the battery by 80% comprises one cycle....if you keep it above 50% you never cycle and that's what our diesel electric systems are designed to do. In an emergency you can go to 80% depletion by this is typically done. I have AGM's in my boat (the Casey on web site..1939 , 20,000 lb 28 footer) that have been there for 4 years with no degadation. We expect them to last for 6-8 years. What will you have done in maint on a diesel in 6-8 years....if you go to sea much you will have done 18-26 oil changes and filter changes, mabey a rebuild, mabey and new transmission, 6 transmission oil changes...and spent several hundred hours waiting for your diesel to warm up for 10 minutes so you can use it for 10 minutes...or even 5 minutes (10 minutes is Yanmar's suggested warm up time). I would much rather have a generator that always turns on runs at optimum efficiency...and oh by the way...where there was a 15-18HP yanmar , there can be a 4KW cacooned generator and 4Kw electric engine that you won't hear either running.
Continuous Running....We have a boat(CAL 34) that regenerated it's way from Los Angeles to Tahiti....we have a Cheribini 44 that came to Maryland from England on 300 gals of fuel with Ice Maker, AC, Electric stove and oven, freezer and microwave all the way. We have a Conser 47 CAt that motored for 96 hours continuously and motor sailed from Florida to Maryland using the motors to increase speed and generate while sliding down waves. We also have a boat that uses wheel chair batteries and a 4kw generator which altogether is lighter than the comparable diesel engine. Our motors are powerful enough to stop a 20,000 lb 47 ft cat from 7.5knots to 0 knots in 35 feet and to accelerate that same cat to 7.5 knots in two boat lengths...this boat would have had twin 30HP diesels...it has twin 12hp Solomon Motors. The proof is in the pudding.
P.S. I am not being petty...or arrogant....I am merely stating the facts as we have found them out. There is Ideal and Reality. I too was amazed at what our new inventions could do.I must go now but will return....you can always take a trip to Maryland and see for your self.

Wow I was thrilled to stumble onto this site and find your contributions. I am about to begin building boats commercially and have future plans to christen some motorsailers with your drive systems. Please don't be put off by the basement people, listen to the balcony people who know what passagemaking is really about. Just keep on sellin' your ideas! I'm buying!!!! Eveready

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Kay9

I read your links there Brian, you make a very compelling arguement, or rather the paper you linked dose, about the loading aspects of the Aux diesel engine and the resultant fuel savings.

In yours, or someone's opinion what size electric motor would be required to replace a diesel aux. in a 60' 23ton vessel? 6-8knts appearent would be acceptable in speed I think.

I'm sorry Kay9 for not answering your questions. As I look at the dates of these postings I discover I was embarked on some other project and missed seeing them.
Regrettably I am not the expert to answer your question as I am just 'tracking' this relatively new technology for possible inclusion in a new design. I believe the gentleman who started 'Solomons Electric Wheel' sold the company to the Catamaran Company, and has since entered back into the business again under a newly formed company. He might be one of the best sources.

[eveready]

Originally Posted by ewhel

Loch.... Sorry for the questions but I am hoping that some of the respondents will soon realize what we are talking about here and I won't have to spend to much time arguing with folks that don't get the point. The questions....here are the answers:
Torque is all important to pushing props...our motors are somewhere between a steam engine and a diesel...diesels develop more torque than gas engines and our motors develop more torque than diesels...this means you can have a bigger, more agressive prop....that means you will have more ballard pull/push which will give you better ability to punch through waves. Case in point: We did a Cheribini 44 that had a 50HP perkins and a 17"14pitch three blade....in heavy weather and waves it lost speed from 7 knots down to 4 1/2 knots. It now has a Solomon 74 and a 20"16pitch 3 blade and does the same 7 knots but in heavy weather only looses 1 knot down to 6. (This Cheribini left England in January gales and came accross the Atlantic to Tortolla....I think the English channel is probably as rough in January as your gonna see....)

Seems like the natural showcase for your system in the extream would be racing DRAG BOATS or even OFFSHORE RACERS!! EVEREADY. PS: Let's go!!!!!!

[masrapido]

Originally Posted by Kay9

I read your links there Brian, you make a very compelling arguement, or rather the paper you linked dose, about the loading aspects of the Aux diesel engine and the resultant fuel savings.

In yours, or someone's opinion what size electric motor would be required to replace a diesel aux. in a 60' 23ton vessel? 6-8knts appearent would be acceptable in speed I think.

To determine the size of an electric motor to replace diesel, find out the efficiency of the diesel motor. Say, 40% is efficiency of the one you have. Max rated power for the plant is, say 200 kW. Because the plant is only 40% efficient, your actual max available power is 80 kW. Transmission and gear reduction play their part with another 10% (+/- 2%) reduction (from 200kW), so by the time the power hits the prop, you are looking at 60kW available at the highest rated speed for the diesel. Which is the power you need from an electric motor.

Electric motors are superior to diesel, and any other combustion powerplant, in that they have immediate and full power from 0 to max rated rpm. High torques are capable of fast reaction and movement. Diesels can have high torque, but combustion engines achieve their full torque in a very narrow range of high rpm. Hence, you can probably install even smaller EM, around 45-55kW. That depends on the efficiency of EM. Good ones should be at least 85% efficient. If less, stick to the above maths (in the above case that would result in a 60 kW EM).

[SmartSource]

Trouty...

You are on to something... here is a video of a working prototype.

Perendev Magnetic Power Generator:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...64878350110062
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40769300973039

300kwh MEG motor can power a few solomon motors and much more...

Lets see if this guy is for real or just a over-unity scam artist.

The specs from perendev.com:

The 100 Kw unit is the smaller brother of the 300kw unit and was designed to be used in light aircraft and automobiles. We have now due to demand produced this unit as a static power unit.

Power output : 100Kw 263.157 amps@ 380 volt 3 phase.
Continuous power output is 90KW
Synchronous generator.
4 or 8 pole
Temperature rating is 30-40c normal load
Weight 250kg
Dimensions: 1.2m Long
1.2m Wide
1.4m High

Fuel: None

SKU/Item Number: 0091098
100 Kw emm generator
To contact us:
Phone: +49 89 620 30060
Fax: +49 89 620 30061

[marshmat]

The Perendev "motor" has been discussed on here before. I believe the conclusion was that, like all related magnetic-repulsion rotors bearing similar claims in the past, it would not in fact offer free energy and would degauss, or slowly destroy, its magnets over time - outputting considerably less net energy in its lifetime than was used to manufacture it. If you have genuine evidence to the contrary, please post a link to the peer-reviewed journal article; if you're just trying to sell it, perhaps this isn't the place to do so.

[masrapido]

magnets in electromotors do not degauss. if that were the case, we would not have permanent magnet electromotors. degaussing requires thousands of amperes or hundreds of degrees Celsius to happen. A very slow degradation may occur if temperatures go above the working limits during the operation but that's in normal situations unlikely to happen.

this perendev motor has been debunked a few years ago. the "company" behind it is a one man con-band that has been making promises since before 2000, and still nothing.

[brian eiland]

Dear Masrapido
Are you familar with the Profession BoatBuilder publication? The last two issues had interesting articles on the diesel/electric subject. You can now access these articles online:
http://www.proboat.com/digital_issues.html

I'd be interested in your views on these articles.

I assume you are also aware of this other diesel/electric discussion on this forum? I tended to post to this other one as it was 'titled' more generally than the specific reference to the Solomon's technology of this one.

So I will cross reference that discussion here:
Diesel/Electric Propulsion for Sailboats

[masrapido]

Hi Brian,

No, I am not familiar with the USA magazine. I read by default only European publications as they have taken off quietly in the last 15 +/- years and are so much more advanced that the stuf people in bad old USA are talking now is all yesterday's stuff.

But the articles you mention were interesting, if only because they are quite educational, unlike most of the commercial nonsense one can read today in magazines. So what do I think about diesel-electric? Diesel-electric configuration, as you will know well, is an old stuff. As a nautical engineer myself, to me it is nothing neither new nor "spectacular". It appeared on commercial ships some 20-25 years ago, maybe even earlier, in a range of configurations and for various uses on deck. Various armies and navies have used it for decades. I would not be wrong if I said for over 50 years now.

Diesel engine is merely a substitute for batteries. It has advantage of being smaller and lighter than a bank of batteries (particularly lead ones), and it offers greater kW/kg densities. But I do not see an average Diego running to install it on a 12 metre boat. It is quite expensive and out of reach for many a sailor. It is easilly as expensive as a pure (lithium batteries powered) electric motor power system. A 60-70 kW diesel engine will set you back $17-20K, and then there's the electric motor and equipment.

For me the pure electric system is the way to go. But no viable system has been designed yet. Until someone does it, the diesel-electric is the best option given its power to weight ratio and the overall efficiency.

[ChicagoDrifter]

As my broker told me when I asked about all this systems on my boat AC, Watermaker, electrical engine backup, etc. You want to sail or you need something to do.
Years later I want to remove perfectly working AC and watermaker plus a lot of other stuff just because I can't keep up with the work.
Fact 1: In a genset the electrical goes twice as fast as the diesel.
Fact 2: Among cruisers Fisher Panda is rated low compared to Yanmar. Northern Lights is rated high for generators.
Fact 3: If you think that a PM servo with controller is going to outlast a diesel engine you have to hear about my new religion.

Solomon Technologies is linked to Fisher Panda. Look at the market of Fisher Panda compared to Yanmar for marine products before you buy into that 20 years reliability story. I do work with industrial servos and motors all the time and don't remember one that lasted more than 5 years at 12 hours a day 5days a week (a lot less at continuous use).
If you like e-sailboats use a Warp Engine, a Curtis controller and a modified welder to charge batteries and run the motor. For regeneration use one PM alternator (200 AMPS) that is belted 10:1 to the propeller shaft. Yes you will need a neutral-engage gearbox. The cost is around $6K + batteries (4-5K) + work. About the same as an Yanmar. There is no easy way to conserve energy or replace fosil fuel hence the blood for oil situation. Use it or lose it baby! Buy the Yanmar stock they will be around longer than Fisher Panda.
I would like to say something good about Solomon Technologies. In theory they got it right. I would like to know how many servos that purist guy replaced in 10 years. My bet 2-3!