Sailboat powered like submarine

[ancient kayaker]

Am I missing something here? Occasional electric propulsion has already been done, they're called trolling motors, some have a decent enough thrust and they come as a complete system all ready to use at a reasonable price. Why does the issue of electric auxiliary motors keep getting raised here? It's going to be expensive, heavy, a demanding custom installation and comes with its own peculiar maintenance issues. We're talking about a sailboat here, designed to ghost through the water efficiently on minimum power, presumably it already has a feathering prop which won't interfere with electric operations, and the owner has no green issues. A trolling motor is totally independant of the other propulsion options so it does not have a shared failure mode. Transom design permitting, why look further?

[extrat]

Originally Posted by Anytec1210

Today I can only se one technology that have the potential to seriously replace gas and diesel in boats and that are hydrogen fuel cells. Fuel cells are the only alternative that´s able come near to store the same amounts of energy as gas/diesel.

I agree, fuel cells are definitely the way of the future. And, recently, there seems to have been some development in that area:

http://www.bloomenergy.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom_Energy_Server

Of course, these bloomsters, are playing the hype game like crazy. But who knows? Maybe there is something behind their claims.

Originally Posted by extrat

I agree, fuel cells are definitely the way of the future. And, recently, there seems to have been some development in that area:

Of course, these bloomsters, are playing the hype game like crazy. But who knows? Maybe there is something behind their claims.

Wouldn´t be so fast calling that THE future. There are unsolved issues a lot by now. But it has some merits, no doubt.

[MikeJohns]

Originally Posted by apex1

................
The freedom to place a generator where we would like to place it, is just not there, it is theory.
I still have to see a "free" positioning of auxiliaries on a seagoing vessel. (yacht)
Additional in/outlets, exhaust lines, weight distribution, noise, all factors to limit the freedom, all forgotten when the optimistic PR picture of such systems is published.............

Regards
Richard

I agree, and as soon as you hit the sea (wave resistance) then the hours at low speed in clam water become ten minutes, and then you are straight back to hydrocarbons. Diesel electric with a battery bank is very cumbersome for small vessels, if you want that system then it suits better sheltered water applications that spend a lot of time dockside with a shore power connection.

As Terry (AK) says try a trolling motor.

[Anytec1210]

I agree Apex. It’s too early to say that cells ARE the future, but it’s the only technology at current date that has any serious potential to replace fossils at all. Why?

Today you don’t pay extra for range. If you only have the physical and mechanical conditions to do it, adding a 10% fuel reserve on any boat costs near to nothing. Two identical battery electric boats however, with only difference their range, will price very differently.

Hydrogen contains allot of energy (1kg of compressed H is about the same as 1 gallon of gas) and energy is range. Building a 5000 psi hydrogen tank may perhaps be a somewhat more complex task than a stainless diesel tank, but high pressure containers are commodities today.

Second. Compared to battery electrics, fuel cells are a quite available technology. Not "available" as in ready-for-you-to-buy-today, but when battery powered electrics are dependent on some unknown massive technology break to reach the same potential, fuel cells don’t.

Take the Honda Clarity, (a 3500 ibs/1500kg, 5 door sedan with a normal sized interior and luggage ) with 136 hp’s, a 250 mile range and can be refuelled in less than 5 min. Excluded the price, what’s any different to any other car today?

Put those data into any battery electric car today and you will spot where the challenges are.
Developing cost-effective production methods is usually a far easier challenge than inventing the “wheel” itself.

Right Any,

the fuel density of batteries is still (and remains for another 25 years) the drawback of El. Hybrid.

Hydrogen is available today, is proven, and will scale to sensible appliances on board soon.

In fact, it is already all there to make a Hydro/El. Hybrid (catalytic gennny) possible.

The environmental footprint is another issue though.

Regards
Richard

[ancient kayaker]

The thread seems to have morphed into a discussion of the practicalities of advanced fuel systems. For the original question -

Originally Posted by extrat

... What do people around here think about electric propulsion as an add-on to an existing diesel engine? ...

- the anwer is "not much"

The long-term problem is, the issue of replacing fossil fuels as a primary energy source will not be addressed until we have almost run out. At present new reserves are being discovered faster than old ones are being used up, and the technologies to exploit previously unaccessible hydrocarbon sources continue to improve. The more we scrape the bottom of the barrel the deeper it seems to get. That means the investment made in research and facilities will get ever higher, which will be an ever-greater barrier to investing in the infrastructure required to support hydrogen - or any other - power technology.

[extrat]

LOL, guys - I think the point is missed here. I'm not trying to go green - I'm trying to go quiet: My diesel is a single cylinder thumper from the 70s and I'm trying to see if I can shut it up at least for some parts of my motoring experience - which isn't even that much since it's a sailboat. Going green is definitely not a priority for me, especially concidering that it's already quite green, being a sailboat.

[Anytec1210]

Yes, maybe we ended up off topic here but I would say that I can’t today se any battery/hybrid transport application that really makes any sense in terms of the environment? I friend mounted two batteries, a solar panel and a trolling engine to his small sail race cat to bring him the last little in and out of the dock. That’s an application that makes sense, but has noting to do neither economy nor emissions.

A basic fact that almost anyone with hybrid/battery/electric ideas just ignore is how much energy you have to put into producing it. From finding the minerals and raw materials to final product this is a highly energy demanding business that demands lifecycles that are many many times longer than today’s batteries to even get a break even in total energy impact. Loading your boat or car with 5000 Duracell’s from K-Mart before you leave don’t really result in a zero eco footprint for your boat, right.

I would really like a battery application of any kind in transport that makes any sense in terms of environmental impact but I have not seen a single one and those who say that they are either lying or can´t do the math.

Even more ridiculous is the fact that these ideas as are brought up in this forum since the by miles most environmental friendly, economic and proven transport technology in the world where invented by this industry some couple of thousand years ago. The wooden sailboat!

Hear you extrat, quiet is nice so don´t take this on you. I was more looking at many other going geen projects here

[Anytec1210]

Maybe I wasn´t clear extrat but you where, from the beginning clar with your purpuse so I appoligize if I turned your thread into a "green nut" one. Submarines runs electric for the silence of it so you can sure accomplish what you are looking for. Go on It works!

Again sorry, but I´m so feed up with all these stupid eco saving ideas and contraptions from people that can´t even do basic plus and minus math.

[Submarine Tom]

Around and round in circles we go, again and again...

The point really is lost here, in more ways than one.

The sad reality is, "The sooner we run out of hydro-carbons, the better" as "Necessity is the mother of invention."

OR, if oil were to go to $5000US a barrel, we'd see incredible break-throughs in technology by the end of the month!

Woops, almost tripped and fell getting down off my soap box there...

-Tom

[Vulkyn]

Originally Posted by Submarine Tom

The sad reality is, "The sooner we run out of hydro-carbons, the better" as "Necessity is the mother of invention."

OR, if oil were to go to $5000US a barrel, we'd see incredible break-throughs in technology by the end of the month!

-Tom

Agreed ......