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  #1  
Old 04-09-2007, 11:50 AM
kjellhoegseth kjellhoegseth is offline
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Parallell coupled fish tail boat propulsion

Hi!
Some years ago I was in a group who went through a week course in the Russian developed innovation technique of TRIZ, and in the "keelwater" after the course, I got the idea ; Why not use the same propulsion principles for boats like the fishes, an waving oscillating tail,or to get more pushing force, set more tails parallell to each other and drive them oscillating mirrorred along a center plane to avoid any swinging tendency of the hull . Should be possible to drive from a common engine shaft like a propeller. The benefit as long as none can prove the opposite, was taken from the idea : The nature (here the fishes)has over millions of years usually found the most energy efficiant way of moving around - and if you look at the acceleration ability of a Barracuda or a Marlin this idea of a swinging tail looks quite impressive. Does anyone have any experiences here ?? Or is this a forgotten good idea.
kjellhoegseth
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  #2  
Old 04-10-2007, 08:49 AM
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Bergalia Bergalia is offline
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Parallell coupled fish tail...

Interesting. But possibly an unwelcome form of propulsion in a tightly packed marina (back-wash). A mechanical form of sculling....
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  #3  
Old 05-10-2007, 07:43 AM
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kjell kjell is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjellhoegseth View Post
Hi!
Some years ago I was in a group who went through a week course in the Russian developed innovation technique of TRIZ, and in the "keelwater" after the course, I got the idea ; Why not use the same propulsion principles for boats like the fishes, an waving oscillating tail,or to get more pushing force, set more tails parallell to each other and drive them oscillating mirrorred along a center plane to avoid any swinging tendency of the hull . Should be possible to drive from a common engine shaft like a propeller. The benefit as long as none can prove the opposite, was taken from the idea : The nature (here the fishes)has over millions of years usually found the most energy efficiant way of moving around - and if you look at the acceleration ability of a Barracuda or a Marlin this idea of a swinging tail looks quite impressive. Does anyone have any experiences here ?? Or is this a forgotten good idea.
kjellhoegseth
Hi
Is this something you are looking fore?
Viste my website for more information.
http://www.dahlberg-sa.com/kd/Tail.htm

TREK1
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...40064555232864

TREK2
http://video.google.es/videoplay?doc...94079313250276

Cheers
KJELL
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  #4  
Old 05-10-2007, 08:03 AM
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Bergalia Bergalia is offline
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Parallell coupled fish tail

Interesting idea - sort of mechanical sculling as used in Japan, China etc
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  #5  
Old 05-10-2007, 11:06 AM
jehardiman jehardiman is offline
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Kjellhoegseth;

While it is fairly easy to mimic the fin sculling motion of slow, but agile, fish; the large powerful fast fish swim with an entirely different mechanisum. Look at the MIT RoboTuna/RoboPike ( web.mit.edu/ahtechet/www/CMI/CMIpt2by2.pdf) or several of the Japanese Fisheries papers on the different swimming mechanics of fishes. Until we mate MPP sensor feedback to an effective mechanical muscle, high efficency propulsion like swimming fish is not really practical.

Check out this paper: https://ritdml.rit.edu/dspace/bitstr...sis09-2006.pdf

Last edited by jehardiman : 05-10-2007 at 11:10 AM. Reason: add link
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  #6  
Old 12-22-2007, 11:39 AM
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kjell kjell is offline
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I have now installed the Wiggle Tail Drive in an R/C model boat. The horizontal mounting works very well. As soon as I have made the navigation tests, I will show you a video with the test results.
Kjell
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Parallell coupled fish tail boat propulsion-wiggle-tail-0.jpg  Parallell coupled fish tail boat propulsion-wiggle-tail-3.jpg  
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  #7  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:05 PM
Guest625101138 Guest625101138 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjellhoegseth View Post
Hi!
Some years ago I was in a group who went through a week course in the Russian developed innovation technique of TRIZ, and in the "keelwater" after the course, I got the idea ; Why not use the same propulsion principles for boats like the fishes, an waving oscillating tail,or to get more pushing force, set more tails parallell to each other and drive them oscillating mirrorred along a center plane to avoid any swinging tendency of the hull . Should be possible to drive from a common engine shaft like a propeller. The benefit as long as none can prove the opposite, was taken from the idea : The nature (here the fishes)has over millions of years usually found the most energy efficiant way of moving around - and if you look at the acceleration ability of a Barracuda or a Marlin this idea of a swinging tail looks quite impressive. Does anyone have any experiences here ?? Or is this a forgotten good idea.
kjellhoegseth
The best execution of oscillating foils I have seen are the Hobie flappers. Google Hobie Mirage. These get a peak efficiency around 50%

I played with a large foil. Lots of acceleration because of the swept area and very efficient up to about 9kph. Beyond that the boat starts to bounce and the efficiency drops off. I have attached a video of one of my test boats and photo of the foil used. I later went to a foil that was 1.1m wide and 120mm long. This was the most efficient I tested.

Things in nature are highly developed but there is no living organism, as far as I know, that has a rotating shaft with unlimited angular range. It is very difficult to make a flapping foil as efficient as a rotating, twisted foil. If flapping foils were really efficient we would see them frequently used on aircraft.

Rick W.
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  #8  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:21 PM
Guest625101138 Guest625101138 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kjell View Post
I have now installed the Wiggle Tail Drive in an R/C model boat. The horizontal mounting works very well. As soon as I have made the navigation tests, I will show you a video with the test results.
Kjell
Kjell
One of things I eventually learnt about foils (wings) is that the efficiency goes up as the aspect ratio goes up. If you look at fast fish like tuna they have a short wide tail. Same thing with dolphins. They have a knuckle at the end of the tail that is controlled by tendons to allow the tail to flex so the angle of attack is not very high. This gets complex to engineer. I did it with a parallelagram linkage and a torsion spring inside the foil. This gives nice smooth angular control of the foil relative to the velocity over it.

There are some good videas of dolphins and penguins swinmming on the net that shows how their tails operate. There are also mechanically swimmers. Swimming in nature is a a whole body function with the animals having ability to use more than just their tail.

You would find a short, wide foil at the end of a swing arm would be more efficient. You might find it better to locate the foil under the CoG to reduce pitching if it is an issue. If the boat is pitching then the drive loses efficiency.

Rick W.
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  #9  
Old 12-23-2007, 03:19 AM
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kjell kjell is offline
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Tail Propulsion.
When talking about tail propulsion it is important to understand the two different types of movement of the tail.
1. Slow moving wide foil shape.
2. Fast fanning flexible fin shape.
They are producing the thrust in different ways.
Fast swimming is produced with the number 2 movement.
Kjell
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  #10  
Old 12-25-2007, 07:08 AM
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kjell kjell is offline
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I have now tested the Wiggle Tail Drive in an R/C model boat. The horizontal mounting works very well.
http://video.google.es/videoplay?doc...34176741290787

Kjell
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  #11  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:10 PM
penguin78 penguin78 is offline
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The future for propulsion

Not only is an oscillating tail a neat idea, it is the future of propulsion.

Your best prop on the best engine is about half as good as a fish tail.

After seeing the nasa shuttle, and using a computer the sized of a mobile phone, I wouldn't be overwhelmed by the challenge of mimicking a tuna.

The reason we don't have oscillating tail drives, is laziness, people tend to watch too much television, or spend their money on new handbags.

Oscillating foils (tuna tail) actually create a jet, by 'shedding vortexes'

The processing needed to regulate the speed of an oscillating tail is well within the reach of a cheap microprocessor.

The speed and power obtainable is almost twice that of the best props.

It will allow electric drives to completely replace combustion engines in a few short years.
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  #12  
Old 11-13-2012, 02:47 AM
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kjell kjell is offline
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In 2007 I made many interesting tests with fishtail propulcion. One of the problems with tail propulsion is that it is not possible to go reverse. This problem is now resolved with my new TAIL POD. The tailpod as you can se on the picture is an electric driven horizontal tail. The TailPod can direct the Jet stream from the tail in any direction, 360, the same way as modern propeller pods.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rxTymeyvf4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0weQBMVlfGs
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  #13  
Old 11-13-2012, 07:27 AM
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hoytedow hoytedow is offline
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Fish back up using their pectorals. Mechanical versions could be mounted forward on the hull, pressed flat out of the way when moving forward.
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  #14  
Old 11-14-2012, 09:39 AM
kerosene kerosene is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by penguin78 View Post
Not only is an oscillating tail a neat idea, it is the future of propulsion.

Your best prop on the best engine is about half as good as a fish tail.

After seeing the nasa shuttle, and using a computer the sized of a mobile phone, I wouldn't be overwhelmed by the challenge of mimicking a tuna.

The reason we don't have oscillating tail drives, is laziness, people tend to watch too much television, or spend their money on new handbags.

Oscillating foils (tuna tail) actually create a jet, by 'shedding vortexes'

The processing needed to regulate the speed of an oscillating tail is well within the reach of a cheap microprocessor.

The speed and power obtainable is almost twice that of the best props.

It will allow electric drives to completely replace combustion engines in a few short years.
What a load of unsubstantiated crap. Why don't you start justifying your claims as they are rather huge and definitely need data/info to back them up.

Lets start going in detail on these:

Quote:
Your best prop on the best engine is about half as good as a fish tail.
and

Quote:
The speed and power obtainable is almost twice that of the best props.
Lets focus on these and skip the shedding of the vortexes or the speculation about oscillating/electric taking over for now. I would be happy to make an official bet on the latter though.
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  #15  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:09 PM
penguin78 penguin78 is offline
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The hard research

My claims are based on this paper:

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bits...pdf?sequence=1

And the research done at MIT in 1995.

Just skip to page 5 in the above document.
It's not too difficult to understand.

I am not an expert in fluid dynamics (but they are).

You are like a primitive monkey, peering blankly up from the jungle floor.
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