Most Inspiring Proven Hybrid ?

[Questor]

I have learned that trying to convert an existing boat to Hybrid technology is potentially a very hazardous and expensive proposition. I've also come to suspect that most of the alternative energy products promoted to consumers are worthless gimmicks designed to fail and or vastly overrated by the unscrupulous vendors that unload them on us.

Rather than start from a hull and go fishing for the hopefully viable I think it might be easier to study the proven Hybrids that are out there and then try to determine if their proven technologies and components are both viable and affordable for the boats we have.

I nominate the Greenline 33 Hybrid as the most viable and proven Hybrid for inspiration.If anyone knows of an equal or superior Hybrid please add it here.

Originally Posted by Questor

easier to study the proven Hybrids that are out there .

Thats easy,

there are




NONE.

But the topic pops up here twice a week, so you will find opinions, dreams and failures in abundance when you use the search function.

[ancient kayaker]

Hybrid technology has an application to automobile engineering, where the speed is often continually changing with loss of efficiency as the engine operates outside its optimum zone and there is loss of energy when braking. It's not much use there, even so.

These conditions do not apply to a power boat, speed is constant for long periods of time and there are no brakes to regenerate energy from.Hybrid technology doesn't do anything good to a boat's efficiency.

[running-free]

Small boats for calm sheltered or inland lakes for silence / electric-only:
http://www.duffyboats.com/
http://www.endeavourgreen.com/

diesel electric = cost of motor + engine (cost/reward = few installations on recreational boats)
diesel + electric + batteries = more cost, weight, limited energy storage

As an everyday boat (and not a solar boat where everything looks like it is there to hold solar cells), the Greenline 33 is still bleeding edge / concept driven IMHO. I'm glad they're doing it. There is a market for "green." But it's still the concept that is the selling point IMO (not saying that is a bad thing - we buy lots of things that are less practical!) http://www.pbo.co.uk/fileBank/PDF/pb...10_winners.pdf says the cost of the hybrid option (electric motor + batteries + solar panels) adds £20,000 +. For that you get the ability to run on a full sun day at 3.5 knots sustained, probably less. ( http://www.mby.com/reviews/boats/whe...line-33-hybrid ) or draw off the batteries for up to 5.5 knots or 4 knots for up to 5 hours.

As Terry says, no free lunch like in cars.

For $ practicality, that leaves the solar advantage; how many $/hour would that diesel require to run only 3.5 knots? How many hours of operation on solar charge to add up to that $25,000? And then how long do the batteries last and how much $ to replace them (and are they fully recyclable?)

Still there is feeling good about not polluting. Quiet operation with no exhaust. Ability to run very slow without fouling engine. But it's bleeding edge (pay the $$$$$ to enjoy the idea now.)

[running-free]

Vetus Electric Drive EP2200
http://www.frenchmarine.com/product/...-EP2200-237-21

VETUS Electric propulsion
The many virtues and pleasures of electric propulsion are well known in river and canal boating circles. Electric motors are virtually noiseless, have no smelly fuel and produce no polluting emissions. In other words, these propulsion units are truly “Green” and environmentally friendly. By making good use of modern developments in electric motor design, VETUS has constructed the ideal electric propulsion unit. This has the principal assets of: very low power consumption, continuously variable speed, low weight and compact dimensions.

The VETUS Brushless Electric Motor
This VETUS electric propulsion motor does not use carbon brushes, which makes it whisper silent and maintenancefree. At low revolutions, the efficiency of this brushless motor is considerably higher than conventional electric motors equipped with carbon brushes. This VETUS brushless motor also has a very favourable power to weight ratio. Another remarkable feature of the brushless VETUS electric motor is the very low number of revolutions (max. 1,250r.p.m.), which means that it can be coupled directly to the propeller shaft, without the need for a reduction gearbox.
The complete installation is virtually maintenance free and operates virtually without vibration. Finally: the price is extremely competitive and much lower than that of a small diesel engine.

Keel cooling
In order to enhance its efficiency even further, the electric motor is cooled by means of a keel cooling system.

In Practice
During trials with a 2,2 kW electric motor in a 6 metre GRP launch, with a total displacement of 1,2 tons (4 persons and 4 batteries on board), the power consumption was 50 A (24 Volt) and have a max speed of 9 km/h. (4.8 knots) With the available battery capacity (24 Volt - 360 Ah) it was therefore possible to make a trip of 6 hours at this maximum speed assuming the batteries will accept 80% discharge. If lower speeds are acceptable, the total motoring time will of course be proportionally increased.

[running-free]

Technipower Systems, Solomon Marine Propulsion
http://www.technipowersystems.com/ma...tions-overview
http://www.technipowersystems.com/ma...-37%201009.pdf

Fischer Panda systems first
http://www.fischerpanda.de/doc/eng/n...25701A00410138
http://www.fischerpanda.de/metadaten...propDE_eng.pdf

[running-free]

More inspiring (not yet proven)

How will this do?
http://www.planetsolar.org/multimedia-photos.fr.php

Length: 31 m
Width: 15 m
Length with flaps: 35 m
Width with flaps: 23 m
Height: 6.1 m
Weight: 85 t
Surface of solar modules: 536 m2
PV panel efficiency: 18.8 %
PV installed power: 93.5 kW (127.0 HP)
Average engine consumption: 20 kW (26.8 HP)
Average speed: 7.5 kt (14 km/h)
Maximum speed: 14 kt (25 km/h)
Crew: 3 - 4 skippers
People that can go onboard: 40

http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/04/planet-solar-ca/
http://gas2.org/2010/02/26/worlds-la...und-the-world/

Running,

you can stop posting that stuff.

We are well aware of that market, and it was already calculated a hundred times now on more than 20 threads.

As Terry stated, it is not feasible, not sensible and not affordable at present.

period

[ancient kayaker]

Running free, in summary -

diesel - electric = flexible power but not too efficient = harbor tugs and ferries
electric + shore - charged batteries = environmentally sound until the batteries go into landfill
electric + solar - charged batteries = long wait between cruises
diesel - electric + batteries = heavy and inefficient = why bother?
Diesel for cruising + trolling motor for maneuvering around the marina = great recreational boat

... and then, the final choice, canoe, kayak or rowboat = ultimate health and environment choice. Of course, as the ancient kayaker I may be biassed ...

Originally Posted by ancient kayaker

Running free, in summary -
... and then, the final choice, canoe, kayak or rowboat = ultimate health and environment choice. Of course, as the ancient kayaker I may be biassed ...

Towards what Terry?

nice summary, thanks.

Richard

[running-free]

Originally Posted by apex1

Running,

you can stop posting that stuff.

We are well aware of that market, and it was already calculated a hundred times now on more than 20 threads.

As Terry stated, it is not feasible, not sensible and not affordable at present.

period

Do you have any hands-on experiences with hybrids apex1? It is the hybrid forum and would be interesting to hear the failures, trials and tribulations, etc.

On what basis do you say the Greenline 33 is "not feasible"? It is a high price tag for the eco-package IMHO, but they're getting exposure and press for its greenness. I think they will sell some. Do you think none will sell apex1?

[wardd]

years ago when i was a kid someone had the idea one christmas to sell little bags of manger straw for under the tree

it was a dollar, for a $.75 you could by a bale of straw

of course they will sell some, all they have to do is call it green

[running-free]

diesel - electric + batteries = heavy and inefficient = why bother?

I appreciate the accurate summary. The why? You currently still need the diesel to get "reasonable" speeds for getting from point a to point b and add seaworthy safety. But the batteries allow you to move a boat of some accommodation around harbors or when you want to be out on the water but don't care about getting anywhere specific.

Other than the $ inefficiency, how much inefficiency does carrying either the diesel or battery "ballast" weight have when running in the opposite mode? Can anyone ballpark how much more diesel would it take to carry those batteries along at 12 knots running the diesel engine than if they were not on board?

[Questor]

Other than the Greenline 33 everything I've looked at online is a small open fair weather shuttle with about a 2 kw motor. I think most people wanting a solar-wind charged electric boat want something in the area of 25 feet with a lot more comfort plus the ability to handle adverse conditions. The ideal electric motor to me would be 5 kw. So far I haven't found one.

[ancient kayaker]

Originally Posted by running-free

I appreciate the accurate summary. The why? You currently still need the diesel to get "reasonable" speeds for getting from point a to point b and add seaworthy safety. But the batteries allow you to move a boat of some accommodation around harbors or when you want to be out on the water but don't care about getting anywhere specific ...

A trolling motor and small battery will do the same for less cost and complexity

Originally Posted by running-free

... Other than the $ inefficiency, how much inefficiency does carrying either the diesel or battery "ballast" weight have when running in the opposite mode? Can anyone ballpark how much more diesel would it take to carry those batteries along at 12 knots running the diesel engine than if they were not on board?

Good question. If the electric motor is driving the prop 100% as is the case for standard diesel electric system, then you'd need a generator, motor, batteries. You might lose around 30% in a high efficiency system. You may need to toss someone out of the boat to make space or get a bigger boat, in which case the fuel consuption ramps up again. If the motor is down sized for pottering you need a gearbox but the other stuff gets smaller and the consumption is only effected by the extra weight (and size) when cruising under diesel. If the motor has its own separate prop you pretty well are back with the trolling motor.