Getting Out Of The Box With Hot Air

[Questor]

The more I look into consumer solar and wind power the more they seem to be elaborate hoaxes. It seems the major goals are to entrap enthusiasts with non viable technologies that result in failed expectations. The consumer himself is also a major self destructive antagonist when he approaches the subject of alternative energy technology with an all or nothing attitude.

Both in the home and on the water it seems that the best consumer applications of solar and wind turbine power are as supplements to mainstream energy sources. We ought to universally embrace the existing technologies as supplements to demonstrate our commitment to cleaner energy and as a means of encouraging ongoing research and development.

In light of the dismal inadequacy of both solar and wind electric generation as a means of powering small to mid size watercraft I suggest we need to get out of the box and explore new methods of energy capture and utilization. The quest of discovery in uncharted territory is sure to produce some dismal failures and bizarre proposals. The most bizarre and preposterous suggestions may in the end prove to be the most viable.

One of the components of alternative energy capture, storage and utilization that I would like to explore is compressed air.One of the major weaknesses of small scale conventional solar-wind energy technologies is the low and erratic capture of energy that often does more harm than good to batteries. Converting low energy values to useful charges can be an expensive and highly technical endeavor.

One proposal that I am considering is using captured energy to power micro air compressors.Compressed air can be stored in an air tank until pressure is high enough to run a conventional 12 volt automotive alternator or generator at a useful output that is not detrimental to storage batteries.

I have a few other suggestions relating to air compression and methods of alternative energy capture that I will add later if there is any interest here in air compression as a component of Hybrid Boat Development.

[mydauphin]

You figured it out congratulations. Solar is a supplement, indeed I use it daily to charge my batteries on DC system. The main systems are DC, but no comfort systems. MY comfort systems, microwave, heater, stove, AC, etc.. are all AC.

As far as compress air systems. The more you convert energy then more you lose some to resistance , drag and other inefficiency. Far better to store DC energy in DC.

[thudpucker]

My interest is Algae Diesel and I ran into the same Flim-Flam man. People selling smoke, ideas and dreams. Not a hardware man in the bunch.

[magwas]

I have heard that taxis in Paris go on compressed air, but I can't seem to find more detail.
Also here is an interesting article.
http://www.rexresearch.com/negre/negre.htm

I think that energy density and easy handling of diesel/petrol cannot be beaten right now.
Maybe the way to go is to synthetise it from water and air. It is possible (but very inefficient) to distillate CO2 from air. Hydrogen can be obtained from water nearly by simply adding electricity. The Fischer-Tropsh process is well known to create synthetic diesel from CO and H2. But I'm afraid we should wait a bit for the home diesel generator, partly because I don't have a clue whether it can be done in any useable efficiency, and home equipment size.

Another tip for those who have the grid and necessary laws: in some places buying small-scale green electricity should be bought by the electricity provider. This basically means that you can use the grid as a battery. As battery is the main problem with these systems, it means economical feasibility for home electricity generation.

Originally Posted by magwas

I have heard that taxis in Paris go on compressed air, but I can't seem to find more detail.
Also here is an interesting article.
http://www.rexresearch.com/negre/negre.htm

Thats drivel, not a article.

I think that energy density and easy handling of diesel/petrol cannot be beaten right now.

right

Maybe the way to go is to synthetise it from water and air. It is possible (but very inefficient) to distillate CO2 from air. Hydrogen can be obtained from water nearly by simply adding electricity. The Fischer-Tropsh process is well known to create synthetic diesel from CO and H2. But I'm afraid we should wait a bit for the home diesel generator, partly because I don't have a clue whether it can be done in any useable efficiency, and home equipment size.

Another tip for those who have the grid and necessary laws: in some places buying small-scale green electricity should be bought by the electricity provider. This basically means that you can use the grid as a battery. As battery is the main problem with these systems, it means economical feasibility for home electricity generation.

Compressed air is a really mad idea! What do you use to compress it? A hammer?

Why would one destillate CO² from air? Every brewery produces it as a waste product.

Fisher Tropsch is a rather old hat, and by far not efficient enough.

A pressureless catalytic depolymerisation is the recent way to go.

Green Electricity is water and wind, nothing else. And even these only to some extend.

In a land based off grid setup, the battery is not the problem once the size covers more than only one or two households! Redox Flow batteries are the right installation here.

[Questor]

Originally Posted by mydauphin

As far as compress air systems. The more you convert energy then more you lose some to resistance , drag and other inefficiency. Far better to store DC energy in DC.

My out of the box proposals do not use electrical energy to power the micro air compressors. The air compressors would be powered by two complementary methods of raw energy capture, both of which rely on clutched pulleys with auto rewind.

The first method of energy capture relies upon the motions of the boat that are products of water movements. Pull cords are mounted at two locations and are anchored to the sea floor. As the boat rocks and bobs, the pull cords run the compressor/ compressors. The second method of energy capture involves a small square sail with a pull cord on each corner. As the sail responds to buffeting winds the pull cords nominally wind and rewind to power air compression. The small square sail also increases movement of the boat allowing anchored pull lines to capture wind energy as well as water movement energy.

Compressed air generates a lot of heat. Here in Canada and the Northern US heat energy is our most costly energy expenditure. The heat loss of air compression is great in those realms. When compressed air is released it has refrigerant properties. Depending on your needs you can use the alternating states of air compression and decompression to capture either heat or cooling effects.

[Questor]

Originally Posted by thudpucker

My interest is Algae Diesel and I ran into the same Flim-Flam man. People selling smoke, ideas and dreams. Not a hardware man in the bunch.

Algae diesel is a fascinating subject. It is only one area of the utilization of microbiological processes that fascinates me. In my area there are a few experimentors that supplement home heating with the heat of fermentation from their home sewage and bio garbage. The methane produced from fermentation is also used for home heating. The third product is high grade fertilizer . I believe the future of our planet and species is dependent upon the responsible utilization of microbes. Microbes can in some cases transform raw materials to desired products at a ratio of over a million to one in less than 24 hours. In the future microbes will provide us with everything from energy, to food and lumber. Harnessing the potentials of their alternate time line frequencies will also be a key to interstellar travel. The possibilities are endless.

I doubt that Home Algae Diesel production is viable at the individual scale. Home fuel production for internal combustion engines has many hazards of contamination that are difficult to deal with in micro refining.

Originally Posted by Questor

I doubt that Home Algae Diesel production is viable at the individual scale. Home fuel production for internal combustion engines has many hazards of contamination that are difficult to deal with in micro refining.

No, they are just too expensive and far too big for such "homebrew". And most technologies do not scale down to that extend.

The rest of your drivel is (as usual) too lunatic to comment.

[thudpucker]

RE: methane for fuel.
The following is a Chemical engineers version of what should be happening.

Locally we have Chicken farmers with 400' and 600' Chicken houses.
40,000 to 44,000 Chicks raised to six weeks old, the Chickens are collected, the Chicken houses cleaned out and the "Litter" including Dead Chickens goes into an "Aerobic" digester.
That is a covered space, and the Methane captured is fed into a Tank.
hat tank feeds a big Gasoline Generator which is converted to Methane.
That big generator supplies all the Farmers needs. House Barn, Chicken houses et al.
Eventually all that Aerobic purged litter goes into an "Anerobic Digester" which is a bit water tank with a stirring system.
From that, the fine particulate is dried, pressed into a Cake and sold for Commercial uses.
One use of the "Anerobic Digester" is the Alga. The source of many Chemical bi-products including a burnable Oil loosly referred to as Diesel.

[EuroCanal]

Originally Posted by magwas

I have heard that taxis in Paris go on compressed air, but I can't seem to find more detail.
Also here is an interesting article.

I have never seen this used in Paris, but I think they tested some taxis in Nice or Marseilles a few years ago. The company behind it has now launched a car which has been homologated for sale in Luxembourg. Here's the website:

http://www.mdi.lu/english

Don't build your hopes up, though. It only has a 5.5 hp engine(!), and a top speed of 70 kph.

Originally Posted by thudpucker

RE: methane for fuel.
The following is a Chemical engineers version of what should be happening.

Locally we have Chicken farmers with 400' and 600' Chicken houses.
40,000 to 44,000 Chicks raised to six weeks old, the Chickens are collected, the Chicken houses cleaned out and the "Litter" including Dead Chickens goes into an "Aerobic" digester.
That is a covered space, and the Methane captured is fed into a Tank.
hat tank feeds a big Gasoline Generator which is converted to Methane.
That big generator supplies all the Farmers needs. House Barn, Chicken houses et al.
Eventually all that Aerobic purged litter goes into an "Anerobic Digester" which is a bit water tank with a stirring system.
From that, the fine particulate is dried, pressed into a Cake and sold for Commercial uses.
One use of the "Anerobic Digester" is the Alga. The source of many Chemical bi-products including a burnable Oil loosly referred to as Diesel.

Wow, what a good idea!

We run entire villages on those systems in Germany! And the oldest of these are over 35 years old now.

Regards
Richard

[Questor]

Originally Posted by magwas

I have heard that taxis in Paris go on compressed air, but I can't seem to find more detail.
Also here is an interesting article.
http://www.rexresearch.com/negre/negre.htm

Another tip for those who have the grid and necessary laws: in some places buying small-scale green electricity should be bought by the electricity provider. This basically means that you can use the grid as a battery. As battery is the main problem with these systems, it means economical feasibility for home electricity generation.

The longest distance traveled by an air powered car that I am aware of is 1,700 kilometers. The super compressed liquid air used in that car is very expensive to purchase so the example can provide some inspiration but little guidance in real world application.

In my province home electricity producers are allowed to release surplus power into the grid at wholesale value. The wholesale value of the surplus released to the grid is deducted from their retail electric utility bill. We are also allowed to buy green electricity here through our electricity provider.

Most of the Professors that I have discussed compressed air technology with are opposed to the idea because they say they'd rather keep their air in the sky than a billion compressed air reservoirs. They haven't taken into consideration the possibilities of using Carbon Dioxide in closed systems. Using Carbon Dioxide in closed systems would be a potential means of storing some of it for short terms while we try to develop means of breaking it down. Another possibility is using compressed Carbon Dioxide as a fuel in a way that separates it into Carbon and Oxygen as part of the utilization process.

In the wave and wind power supplemented boat I described earlier I can envision the possibility of having up to four light weight air tanks powering generators as small compressors generate alternating cycles of vacuum and pressure in a closed system

[Questor]

Originally Posted by apex1

Compressed air is a really mad idea! What do you use to compress it? A hammer?

Compressed air is a wonderful idea.It is a practical means of mechanically capturing and storing the natural energies of wind and water until you have enough of it for practical use. You may have missed the earlier mention of compressors to compress the air.

[Questor]

Originally Posted by EuroCanal

Don't build your hopes up, though. It only has a 5.5 hp engine(!), and a top speed of 70 kph.

We need to escape the notions that we need two ton automobiles for personal urban commuting and we need to consider that every car does not need to challenge every conceivable climate and topography. Many modern households have multiple automobiles. There is no reason why we can't have low speed light weight personal commuter vehicles included in the mix alongside of motorcycles and bicycles.

Originally Posted by Questor

Compressed air is a wonderful idea.It is a practical means of mechanically capturing and storing the natural energies of wind and water until you have enough of it for practical use. You may have missed the earlier mention of compressors to compress the air.

Try to understand what you state here. It is a mad idea to store energy. The density is just too low. (to mention one point)

And I reply what was deleted here: ***

go ahead, your threads have a entertainment factor!


*** I would wish the moderator would be as alert on other threads with other members!