Diesel/Hydrogen Hybrid Trawler

[kistinie]

i agree on the 5 points you brought.

But the world isn't black or white

A : Old engines exists.
Marine engine existing on actual boats, are not the most modern engines or earth.
More generally take my example
My citroen is 20 Years and only 300.000 Km
My mercedes German army truck i use for building my houses is 42 years
My Yanmar is 12 years (conception is 30 years)

On them addition of H² or butane or propane give an important increase of the efficiency of combustion and lower particle pollution.
This is a simple solution for old existing engine.


B : At 150$ the baril, electrolysing H² is competitive
150$ will be back in a few months, a few years.

C : A sailing boat with regeneration from a propeller will be able to produce a lot of energy, so a lot of H² by simple electrolyse.
Stocking H² in MgH2 will be totally safe (Cocorico ! French CNRS patent ! )

So talkinf of H² for a sailing boat is very realistic and can have some great applications, don't you think ?

[kerosene]

Originally Posted by kistinie

B : At 150$ the baril, electrolysing H² is competitive
150$ will be back in a few months, a few years.

But that its not what is being sold to us. We are not being sold equipment that will reduce fuel cost by 150$ in months or a year. We are being sold miraculous equipment that is misrepresented* and that is supposed to save me thousands instead of 150$



* TYPICAL MARKETING LIES
1) Fuel doesn't burn fully - our equipment helps that happen - reduce carbon footprint by 30-90% - reduced carbon emissions equal reduced fuel consumption.
2) electrolysis is represented as some kind of hidden secret when it is nothing like that. "But you can't burn water are you crazy?! But now you can"-type of marketing is clearly targeted to people who have NO CLUE.


You call me black and white - at least I take time to explain my point instead of brushing it of with one sentence and then introduce something totally irrelevant.

You should also check the link in the 1st page of this thread - I am still missing the daily updates on the testing starting May 2nd...
http://www.water4fuel4boats.com/8.html

Now I am out of this discussion.

[floydrob]

would it not be more efficient to run a trawler on biofuel? use used vegetable oil and for every litre add 5ml of non kerosine turpentine, leave to sit for a week and works out as 3p per litre!!

otherwise, electorlysing water to produce hydrogen isnt the problem, it's running it through an engine! if you use h2 gas it will leak and explode due to it being so volatile. it needs to be in liquid form to be safe hence, petrol or deisel...they are both hydrocarbons.

AND, electrolysing pure water is highly inneficient as it is not an ionic substance. therefor you need to add an electrolyte such as calcuim chloride, in w2hich casy you would get chlorine gas given off along with oxygen at the positive electrode and a large yeild of hydrogen gas at the negative electrode. chlorine is poisonous!

requires a huge amount of research and in the end, the cost outweigh the savings.

as i say, biofuel is probs the best way forward for a trawler. deisel engines are used for a reason...the torque. dont sacrafice that by using more dangerous hydrogen

[mudman]

How will you store this Hydrogen/Oxygen mix on a boat kistinie? Did someone explain pressurized HHO already? I think it was about 6 or maybe 10 pages back. You did not pay attention there either did you. I keep waiting for you to give us something new, but alas, I am disappointed every time.

You would really go through all of this trouble to put hydrogen into a generator? Are we still talking about a generator kistinie? Probably not. You change subject every second. I too need to see things in super x ray (or possible rainbow vision) rather than black and white I guess.

Lets just say that we are now talking about a petrol engine powering a boat. Exactly how much will this save you? Let's count the ways. There is a big risk of explosion, it is too inefficient, and also expensive for little to no gain. If you try this childrens experiment inside the confined space of a hull, and then capture an explosive mixture of hydrogen mixed with oxygen, I think that you will blow yourself up. (one could only be so lucky). I would discourage anyone from attempting such a dangerous and dumb idea. No mattter what you say kistinie, it is dangerous, and it is dumb. I nor does anyone else (I hope) suggest it.

You may change your idea for your next post, and then come back to it 5 or 6 pages later and submit it again.......and again. This reoccuring scenario is making me believe that you have no want to share or gain any knowledge with anyone.

A few others have already bailed on you and your ramblings. I will now join kerosene and the rest, and entertain you no longer.

Originally Posted by mudman

A few others have already bailed on you and your ramblings. I will now join kerosene and the rest, and entertain you no longer.

A wise idea, pretty late though.

[thudpucker]

kerosine, I'm gonna PM you on one of your points. I think your right, but I'm having a devil of a time understanding why....I'll explain later. No point in extending this batch of unfounded arguments in the forum.

[floydrob]

now hold on...this is what the world needs...ideas!!! and running en engine on hydrgen is not a bad one at that! it just needs thought. engines run on hudrocarbons containng hydrogen and oxygen, hydrogen burns, carbon is oxidised into carbon dioxide (then theres all the other sh*t in the air that is also oxidised to give things like sulpher dioxide and ntrogen dioxide)

if we remove the carbon from the equation...what does hydrogen burt to producee?? WATER!! pure H20

and it does work! i have run my lawnmower on hydrogen which i made by placing electrodes from a car battery into a solution of baking soda and distilled water...it ran great, but with the occasional backfire or small pop outside the engine

IF on a bigger scale, this could potentially be life threatening!

only way to find out is to experiment, but on small scale!. get yourself an old lawnmower and make some hydrogen...if you dont know how to collect it, you use downward displacement of water (collecting bottle filled with water inside tub of water upside down, place negative electrode underneath so bubbles rise into bottle)

few tips...use carbon (graphite form) electrodes, and if you can find them use a honeycomb structure for greater surface area. the voltage produce fro the spark plug is about 20'000volts, but next to no amps, so if you want a continuous cycle, try adding another coil to the engine, or a dynamo, and get an inverter to change the high voltage-low current to low voltage-high current. just remember, energy cannot be created or lost, the amount of nergy that goes in will be the amount of energy that comes out...you are simply converting stored energy to movement via heat.

water has plenty of stored energy...it is possible with a good system to run a vehicle purely on water VIA electrolysis VIA dynamo (not alternator as DC is needed)) and this has been done by a japanes company, but that is with VERY efficient technology

Originally Posted by floydrob

now hold on...this is what the world needs...ideas!!!

Yes of course





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.
unfortunately the world needs mature ideas, not rainbowdust.....

[kistinie]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnesium_hydride

This is not a dream, but a true, hard, chemical reality.

H² is full of promises for a boat.


Now about kit of HHO, telling anything and the contrary...i'm an not responsible of there anarchic talks.
The only thing i see, is that H²O is full of potential, full of interest, and electrolysing, growing fast.

Please understand that i have distance with the subject, and I'm not doing any crusade form this manufacturer, or that product.


The only thing you can keep in mind of what is a hard beleive for me, is that peak oil is now, and that we will need to keep oil for noble uses, like production of composites, plastics, aramide and burning it is stupid, is to my eyes a prehistoric behaviour.


i think that it will be possible, very soon, to have a sailing boat, recharging batteries with wind, sun, and regeneration from sailing giving a 100% autonomy without oil. H² is one important key for this.
A boat gives a much better space and the weight carrying possibility than a car.
Not searching hard in this kind of direction is being a fool, if not criminal, to our future.
And this is totally disconnected from global CO² warming, that i do not beleive in at all.

[FAST FRED]

"The only thing you can keep in mind of what is a hard beleive for me, is that peak oil is now"

I hope your are young enough to enjoy that statement 5 or 10 decades from now.

Peak oil is a concept , that may come , SOMEDAY, buy its far far in the future.

The huge CA$H now being dumped into all forms of "alternate" energy will perhaps produce the solution, better energy storage.

If you could drive your car 400 miles at the same speeds and standard of living you now enjoy , and recharge in under 2 min , probably the Nuke power plants would be the power source.

When that happens , "peak oil" will be as interesting as "Peak Coal" (300 to 500 years away).

Oil will be in lubricants (perhaps ) and plastic , so our GRP style boat construction will still be here.

Live Long and Prosper,

FF

[kistinie]

Peak oil will be a all night discussion as everybody is lying on numbers
We can also make oil with coal, it is true.
But the problem is on exponential demand.
1,2,3,4...5 or 6 % increase a year is giving exp increase. No way to go out of this maths !

And when you see the actual cost of carbon fiber, aramide and other petrol based high tech. products already very expensive today, just imagine the future, with oil 2 or 3 times more expensive


And one thing is clear : There will be no H² peak, and no solar peak !
So it would be more than wise to do very big efforts to go in this direction.

This is the reason why i like this subject "hydrogen trawler"
Hydrogen boat...smells good...Got good taste as would have said the regretted Lux Interior

[kistinie]

One project stopped.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/08/sc...ergy.html?_r=2

The project of coal to gas starts much earlier than i would have thought and CO² swindle goes on...

[Karl2]

I'm going to be un-polite and say that this is not a very interesting tread. Fascinating - Yes. Interesting - No.

Something is terribly wrong with this picture: A "hydrogen device" costing as little as 50 EURO can improve a combustion engines efficiency with 30-60%.

If that was scientifically correct, factual and proven why are not CAT, Cummins, Volvo, MTU on this technology like flies on you-know-what ??

Karl2

[marshmat]

Because, Karl, the Illuminati and the Scientific Establishment are masterminding a conspiracy to keep the secrets of free energy from nowhere suppressed!

[Karl2]

Exactly what I suspected....