Diesel/Electric Propulsion for Sailboats

[alexandros]

thank you Berserk.

I tried to find info on the official site of Bavaria but they mention nothing.

I assume DE technology is not mature yet and therefore not many boat owners or shipyards are willing to experiment with it?

[Pericles]

The experiments at Bavaria are probably not finished yet, which is why they have not posted info. It's commercially sensitive material.

See these sites.

http://www.fischerpanda.co.uk/electric_propulsion.html

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/

http://www.asmomarine.com/2005/asmo_uk/04.shtml#Q01_12

http://www.sillette.co.uk/elect_saildrives.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel-electric

http://www.solomontechnologies.com/

Enjoy the reading,

Pericles

[alexandros]

Pericles,

Thank you for the links. Probably you are right about Bavaria's experiments with DE technology.

[masalai]

Pericles, I also appreciate your efforts in posting these links. I have recorded same for my future needs/use (hope I do not loose them?)

[Steve Martin]

African Cats is in the final stages of testing their Green Motion hybrid system. You can read some documents at http://www.africancats.com/ and http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ion-10261.html

[masalai]

Steve, Thanks for the web-sites, Quite interesting, pity it is mostly advertising hype, with minimal hard technology analysis (numbers & $)

I assume this is because of a desire to hold on to any competitive technical leadership as long as possible.

- a sad state of affairs, for with global co-operative development the product would penetrate market acceptance quicker & consumers would also benefit

[alexandros]

Alongside the Fischer-Panda company producing electric engines for Hybrid systems i also found Vetus (www.vetus.nl) offering a complete solution for hybrid propulsion.
In their detailed on-line catalogue though they mention that the a 6m. GRP boat may sail for 6 hours in a speed of 4.8 knots. My question is whether such engine can be used for much bigger boats (60-75 ft.). Probably not for cruising but i find hybrid engines ideal for the manoeuvres inside a marina (in terms of waste, oil and noise-polution).

[masalai]

alexandros, Just add lots & think of it as multiple "bow thrusters" but not only in the bows, Thanks for the website

[Pericles]

alexandros,

You mentioned the Vetus hybrid drive for propelling a large vessel in a marina. You would still need to run the diesel at some stage. If your 60-70 footer were a 4th generation cruising catamaran, then there are better alternatives. See article.

http://www.john-shuttleworth.com/Articles/NESTalk.html

The first point to note with these catamarans is that 20 knots cruising under sail is a reality. The second point is that Asmomarine electric motors regenerate electricity at 6 knots. The third point is that two Thoosa 17000 motors mounted on Sillette saildrives and fitted with Brunton Autoprops, are a straight replacement for two 60 hp diesel engines and will easily move the catamaran at 10+ knots. Under sail, when the propellers freewheel with minimum drag in the water, the batteries are charged.

The electricity used in 30 minutes manoeuvring in harbour is replaced in around the same length of time whilst sailing around 8 knots. With sufficient battery capacity, it's possible to start thinking of doing away with all diesel power.

This from Asmomarine:

"For the THOOSA 13000 and THOOSA 17000 systems, the motor controllers are complete different from the nom. 48V controllers. The cut-off-voltage will be about 2,45V/cell, so for a 96V battery bank, the cut-off-voltage will be 117,6V, if it’s an open traction, and if sealed traction the limit shall be adjusted to 2,35V/cell = 112,8V. Please note that the charge regime in regeneration mode is not a 3-step function, so we recommend you to take care of maintaining the battery bank once per month by a 3-step shore power charger to obtain maximum life cycle of the battery bank. When you are sailing there will be a lot of smaller charge/discharge functions and this can slower the battery over time. That’s why you need to maintain with shore power charger."

Another reply:

"Battery manufacturers worldwide have specified on each battery type, how this shall be maintained and we recommend to follow this. Our AMC chargers have 15 different charge regimes build in, and by a small switch it’s possible to adjust the charge voltage settings to most common used batteries. In cases where no one of the settings match the chosen battery type, you can send us the data sheet of the battery and we will change the software in the charger, so it follows the battery manufacturers advice.

The AMC chargers have only AC input, not DC. If you are far from shore most of the time, I suggest that we get produced a regulator with 3-step charger function, max. 1500W. For your information I have recently offered a 72V/1500W solar regulator to a boat builder in Portugal. The price for this model is € 1.260,00 excl.VAT and excl. freight cost. The regulators are custom designed and can be produced in 12V, 24V, 36V, 48V, 72V, and 96V."

------------------------------------------------------

Better yet, battery technology has improved greatly. See page 104 at http://www.proboat-digital.com/proboat/20080203/ to read Nigel Calder's article about these advances and his ideas about creating the hybrid DC boat. It's because his new vessel is NOT as fast as a catamaran, that he continues to require a diesel generator for house needs etc.

Fast cruising catamarans give their owners the opportunity to skip the development stage of hybrid technology and leap straight to a fully independent DC boat, even with AGM batteries. However, the new types of batteries only make the choice simpler and easier. No weighty diesel engines, no DE generator, no diesel fuel tanks, no expensive servicing, no fuel bills, no smells, no noise, easier operation and the shorter boat build time will save money as well.

I have much more data and some costings from Asmomarine for those who would like them. The sums make good financial sense even at first cost, let alone over 10 years.

Regards,

Pericles

[alexandros]

Pericles,

Thanks a lot for the extensive reply to my question. Really appreciated.

Unfortunately, the boat i am thinking of applying such technology is a wooden monohull boat.
As for the Thoosa 1700 (suitable for boats 40-50ft.) you think it could work for a wooden 60-75ft boat? It is strange because i have read in various web-sites that military boats as well big cruise vessels use DE systems. However it appears that there is a gap between small pleasure boats and huge commercial boats. I found that SIEMENS is also working into this direction :

http://www.industry.siemens.com/meta...28&SIdent=1071

but i have to contact them to find out more information on this.

I do not have the appropriate tech & scientific knowledge to grasp all the details and particular details of every solution so everything becomes more perplexed.

[Pericles]

http://boatdesign.net/cgi-bin/bdn/se...yword&bool=and

Pericles

[masalai]

Thanks for the posting Pericles, The OSSA power source looks like either a Mercedes or Lombardini and they come in dry around 70kg, yet they talk in terms of 248kg for the genset... 60kw direct diesel drive is around that....? I like the Merc diesel and the Lombardini for their fuel efficiency & light weight - could be hauled ashore to power other things on the islands... (making coconut Oil fuel)

Any idea what the engine/generator without the box weigh & cost? (25kw OSSA)

I liked the "African Cats" green motion because of the lift-able screws assembly and the ability to take larger dia efficient fixed design screws (feathering is additional things to break & lifting out is easier.)... - their 'retractable drive system' that swings up... under sail I can lower one or both to generate power... Time is a little on my side, and I am hoping that reliability and prices will be more attractive soon...

[Pericles]

Masa,

Far be it for me to, um, er, pour cold water on your aspirations, but where do you get a weight of around 248 kgs for a 60 Kw direct drive Mercedes/Cummins diesel. Nearest I could find is this at 700 lbs (318 kgs) for 48 Kw.

http://www.tadiesels.com/cu-B3.3M.html

The OSSA 25 Kw generator is completely self contained. Drop it in and couple up cooling, fuel lines and cables as far as I can see and at 65 dbAs, it's very quiet. I don't think you can have it without the box.

I am getting UK prices and weights for 3000 Amp Hours of Odyssey batteries for another project. I come back to you on that.

All the best,

Pericles

[masalai]

Oops, I was not really clear in what I said.... - - Lombardini 3 cyl 1003cc diesel comes in at under 70kg dry & bare engine... - - The Merc 1400cc diesel can produce 60 Kw continuous for aircraft use and weighs 70kg (out of the "smart" car series)...

I didn't mention the brand but, Kubota 5 cyl marinised bare (no gearbox) at around 250 kg - - It gives about 60kw, but I think that is "brief" - cant find my docs... The Yanmar 4JH3-HTE at 67.7KW, dry weight without gearbox 228 Kg... Volkswagen TDI 100-5 is 74Kw & 255Kg dry without gearbox...

Mercedes info at http://www.dieselthrust.de/ and also at http://www.ecofly.de/Prices_order.htm and you will find a downloadable pdf with prices in Euro & some performance info, also it can be "chipped" for something like 20% more power...

The OSSA engine looks like it could be based on the Lombardini?, & I do not want the box and other stuff, just the generator (DC) and attendant controls... - - weight & price??? - - Weight is an issue with me...

On the "African Cat", in the "press release" section download on, "retractable drive system", I am quite taken by the small size and that it can be swung up out of the water when sailing, or to clean/maintain/repair, or to keep away from barnacle & other growth...

Jeees It takes sooo long to download using my "snail-mail" paced broadband.... I like the cummins. They are the only ones to not "deny" the use of coconut oil as fuel for "Pelena Express" - - more info here - - http://www.pelenaexpress.com/

The battery info would be helpful and useful as comparative options, Thanks...

[Pericles]

More soon. Not feeling too good tonight. A bad cold is painful all over.

http://www.hawker-odyssey.co.uk/batt-index.html

Regards,

Perry