Diesel/Electric Propulsion for Sailboats

[westsail42]

Originally Posted by Pericles

As for now, the OSSA Powerlite system is the one I am going for, because it is available with NMEA 2000 and I shall be starting the build next year. Please keep in touch.
Pericles

The OSSA Powerlite system seems to be the front runner for my buildout as well. Though it will be a couple years before we are ready for it.

I talked to them at this year's IBEX. They had their DC motors and generators on display. The 36 hp motor is quite small! The interesting thing is that they are promoting their system as a complete "power system". The system is designed to produce power on demand for your high load devices (propulsion motor, bow thruster, windlass, winches, inverters). You can take it as little or as far as you want. You dont need a big battery bank (which the Solomon System requires) but, you can add one to the system if you want silent running. After talking with the rep the system is quite flexible. You dont get this impression from reading their website.

I wish they had more (and updated) technical information on their website. It has been pretty stale most of the year.

[westsail42]

Originally Posted by Vega

Malo and Nigel Calder are working on adapting it to Malo yachts and I believe that in one or two years Malo will ofer diesel-electric in their boats as an option.

I talked to Mr. Calder at IBEX 2006. He said he is not yet conviced about the current D/E systems out there AT THIS TIME. His primary interest is reliability for an offshore boat. He said he is more optimistic about D/E HYBRIDs (electrically assisted diesel systems, like the VETUS product).

[f-44SC]

I was informed that Fischer Panda is "stepping back" on their DE drive system. They state that it relates to the US markets' desire for more power than the European markets.

Somehow, I can believe that. Being one of a few Americans’ that realize that our culture is responsible for using 90% of the worlds resources while we only comprise 10% of the worlds population, perhaps I should feel guilty for choosing to burn fossil fuel to sleep in an air-conditioned cabin and sip frozen margaritas in the tropics.

[westsail42]

Originally Posted by f-44SC

I was informed that Fischer Panda is "stepping back" on their DE drive system. They state that it relates to the US markets' desire for more power than the European markets.

Or maybe they are rethinking their AC Motor strategy? Most of the electro-mech-heads I have talked to see this as a disadvantage.

[Vega]

I think they are not interested in selling only a few systems.

Now that the Beneteau “groupe” is advancing with Diesel-electric and given the number of sales (Lagoon 420) and the huge European interest, I think they are much more interested to join forces with one of the German boat manufacturers, Hanse or Bavaria. They have a lot of money put on research and I believe they have a lot of experience and knowledge in what concerns relatively small DE systems, for sailing boats.

[westsail42]

I came across this company this morning

http://www.ecyclemarine.com/

Small stuff, but interesting nonetheless.

They make electric replacement head units for yamaha outboards. They also make a small diesel/electric hybrid unit they claim can be used for propulsion.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by westsail42

Or maybe they are rethinking their AC Motor strategy? Most of the electro-mech-heads I have talked to see this as a disadvantage.

I posted previously, "I think you would do well to read these two PDF's http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=61065&postcount=5 This DC technology in generation and usage promises a lot less in losses than you traditionally think of. And the 'battery' storage capacity does not have to be that great due to the generator source only needing to be run at just the level required by the electric propulsion motors, unlike AC systems in general."

I'm not an 'electro-head' either, but in my reading it does appear as though the real 'new' technology in this realm is with the DC systems. And Glacier Bay seemed to be further along the entire 'systems offering' than others.

Originally Posted by Vega

I am following this with much interest (I think this is the future, for cruising boats). If anybody have bought one of these babies, I would love to hear a personal opinion.

I'm very interested as well Vega. I am in touch with a gentleman who installed a Glacier Bay system in his catamaran recently finished in Chile. Hope to get a report from him in the next several months.

Of very considerable interest to me is the combination of the Diesel/Electric technology with the Rim Drive Propellers
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9432

http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10429

http://www.yachtforums.com/forums/technical-discussion/3961-rim-driven-propellers.html

I am working on a new design for my Motorsailing/Gamefishing vessel utilizing both of these technologies in combination

[f-44SC]

I believe I'll give the billionaires a little more time to fund the development work on the growing market of small diesel electric drive systems. Such systems could one day be ideal but much like the EV movement in cars these days, lacking governmental support, hopeful, innovative companies end up being forced to "skim off the top" to absorb immense R&D costs before they go out of business, liquidate and tell the onerous VC firms they are sorry.

Profit derived from the production and sale of such systems will eventually come once the German and US technologies are replicated in China. At that point, value will begin to match costs.

After receiving a quote for $94,000.00 for a 25kw system for my cat, I decided to go with twin yanmars and use the extra $80,000.00 to buy diesel fuel for the rest of my cruising life.

[westsail42]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

I posted previously, "I think you would do well to read these two PDF's http://boatdesign.net/forums/showpost.php?p=61065&postcount=5 This DC technology in generation and usage promises a lot less in losses than you traditionally think of. And the 'battery' storage capacity does not have to be that great due to the generator source only needing to be run at just the level required by the electric propulsion motors, unlike AC systems in general."

Hey, no need to convince me. DC is the way to go, that was my point. I spent a lot of time with the OSSA rep about their system at last year's IBEX. For safety and efficiency, as an overall system, DC is the way to go. Neverminding the losses for rectifying signals, why would you put a big AC system on anything but a big power yacht? For smaller boats, DC makes sense as nearly everything can be run off of DC. To periodically run the few that cant (like microwave ovens) and good inverter works just fine.

I often wondered why few genset makers offered only AC gensets (until recently), I suppose it most likely came from the RV/Home/Construction markets that would never use DC. They just marinize them for the marine markets.

[FAST FRED]

The low buck cruisers have been using Ex reefer takeout 2 and 3 cyl Yanmars and Kubotas ($300-$500 or so) with either two $150, 150a new truck alternators , or a 300A 24v bus alternator ,for years.

With a good 3 or 4 stage voltage regulator , and a welding control to adjust the engine speed to minimum for the required amps , its an inexpensive method of charging batts. And quite efficent!

This setup is the BEST way to recharge a really large bat set.

Most AC batt chargers cant put 250a into a batset ever , never mind for hours .

FF

[Vega]

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

The low buck cruisers have been using Ex reefer takeout 2 and 3 cyl Yanmars and Kubotas ($300-$500 or so) with either two $150, 150a new truck alternators , or a 300A 24v bus alternator ,for years.

With a good 3 or 4 stage voltage regulator , and a welding control to adjust the engine speed to minimum for the required amps , its an inexpensive method of charging batts. And quite efficent!

This setup is the BEST way to recharge a really large bat set.

Fred, I agree. Volvo-penta has a second alternator kit for their engines. I have one of those and it works well without taking much power from the engine.

But Diesel-electric is more than that, it's also about reducing fuel consumption till 50% and about increasing your autonomy to near the double, without having to carry extra and heavy fuel tanks.

[Vega]

Originally Posted by f-44SC

I believe I'll give the billionaires a little more time to fund the development work on the growing market of small diesel electric drive systems. Such systems could one day be ideal but much like the EV movement in cars these days, lacking governmental support, hopeful, innovative companies end up being forced to "skim off the top" to absorb immense R&D costs before they go out of business, liquidate and tell the onerous VC firms they are sorry.

Profit derived from the production and sale of such systems will eventually come once the German and US technologies are replicated in China. At that point, value will begin to match costs.

After receiving a quote for $94,000.00 for a 25kw system for my cat, I decided to go with twin yanmars and use the extra $80,000.00 to buy diesel fuel for the rest of my cruising life.

I agree about waiting, but I believe that the development costs will not be supported by millionaires, but by big boat manufacturers that are investing in development of new solutions that will give them an advantage.

Beneteau Group was the first, with the Lagoon 420. The price of the boat with a Diesel-Electric system is identical to the previous boat with diesel engines.

I Believe the Diesel-Electric system is more expensive and I think they are cutting away profits, hopping to have a head start that will give them a future advantage...and looking at the number of boats sold and the interest around the boat, I would say that it is a right move.

[FAST FRED]

I agree about waiting, but I believe that the development costs will not be supported by millionaires, but by big boat manufacturers that are investing in development of new solutions that will give them an advantage.

IF there was an advantage this would be true, but there is NO advantage to these electric systems , and may never be.

A "solution" to any percieved diesel inefficency is a simple twin engine tranny.

A similar setup to the GM units that hooked 2 , 6-71 together for WWII

When speed is desired "the big" engine would be engaged.

For max efficiency at LRC a very much smaller , and harder working , so more efficient would be fired off.

CP prop would be required for max effect.

The BIG (Sultzer) diesels are up well over 50% efficient (60?) ,adding layers of complexity , inefficient batterys and chargers is not going to extend range a bit. A simple gear box only looses 2 or 3% at work, a far cry from charging a batset.

FF

[Pericles]

Fred,

Your nation developed diesel/electric locomotives very successfully, but I reckon the first ones gave their supporters a few grey hairs. Some of the Destroyer Escorts of WW2 were steam turbine/electric and others were diesel/electrics. In all these examples, the concept was to provide electricity generating capacity which was/is run as efficiently as possible and to distribute that power to where it is needed, be it propulsion or services. The Steam turbine DEs developed 12.000 shp and the diesel /electric DEs produced 6.000 shp. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer_escort
The DEs were "good enough" designs for their times. Two generators, two electric propulsion motors, 27 knots.

On a balance of probabilities, OSSA Powerlite will have success with their integrated and sophisticated DC system. By having multiples of different capacity DC generators, up to and including 200 kw, to come on line automatically as demand requires, even 40 footer motor yachts are candidates to be floating power stations. They may not win your approval, but it's really a case of horses for courses. There will be applications where higher capital cost will deliver long term gains due to lower running costs. A cost benefit analysis in each and every application is the way to go, not a blanket condemnation, as per your last posting.

Have a little charity, please.

Pericles

[Vega]

Originally Posted by Pericles

Some of the Destroyer Escorts of WW2 were steam turbine/electric and others were diesel/electrics. ....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destroyer_escort[/url]
The DEs were "good enough" designs for their times. Two generators, two electric propulsion motors, 27 knots.

There will be applications where higher capital cost will deliver long term gains due to lower running costs. A cost benefit analysis in each and every application is the way to go, not a blanket condemnation, as per your last posting.

I had no idea that the diesel-electric was that old.
About costs, a good idea of the profitability of the system will be given if big boat manufacturers like Beneteau or Bavaria start to invest heavily on it. They are the big ones in the business and they are big because they don't lose money.

Beneteau group had just lunched the first commercial experience, we will son know if they consider it rentable or not. If this one (Lagoon 42) remains an isolated case, probably the profitability will not be proved, but if they start to implement diesel-electric on their other brands, you can be pretty sure that the future is there.

Let's wait and see