Diesel/Electric Propulsion for Sailboats

[hugo]

I enjoyed this lively discussion, and particularly caribmon's summary.
I think there might be one more option worth throwing into the pot: http://www.glacierbay.com/ossa_powerlite.asp
Glacier Bay have a lightweight system with a DC genset directly driving electric motors. (so you don't need a big, heavy and high maintenance battery bank)
We are planning to offer this as an option on the new SIG45 - a high performance cruiser racer catamaran. (www.lebreton-yachts.com)
One major benefit of a diesel electric system is that it obviates the need for an additional genset. Relative to twin diesels, a single genset plus two electric motors does not save much weight, if any. Relative to two diesels plus a genset, it saves a lot.
Hugo

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by cyclops

On small, under 40 ', the weight and waterproofing of the electronics is really a disaster due to saltwater burning up the drives and leaving you with no main drive. These drives require a on board electrican / mechanic to maintain.

Burning up what drives? How?

I know folks who have had Duffies over 20 years, without a lick of trouble. I can't say the same for diesel/gas powertrains. Anyone I know who has had one that long has had a major problem at some point, usually with the transmission.

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by cyclops

On small, under 40 ', the weight and waterproofing of the electronics is really a disaster due to saltwater burning up the drives and leaving you with no main drive. These drives require a on board electrican / mechanic to maintain.

I know folks who have had Duffies over 20 years, without a lick of trouble. I can't say the same for diesel/gas powertrains. Anyone I know who has had one that long has had a major problem at some point, usually with the transmission. One could probably replace a battery bank, and still come out ahead of a transmission overhaul.

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by cyclops

What is the complete cost and eff. of any electric powered boat when you add in the pollution and cost of burning fuel at a powerplant to generate electricity, transmission losses and repairs, cleaning the plants gases. Most people do not add in the battery companies costs and pollution either. Each time energy is converted it loses some eff. Do a oil in ground to prop turning eff. study and anything electric loses out. Electric power is a very wastefull form of power. And I like electrics.

This depends on where you are, and how your electricity is generated. If you live on the US east coast and get your electricity from coal, it may be dirtier than burning diesel directly -- assuming you have a newer diesel in good condition. But if you live on the west coast, your electricity comes from natural gas, nuclear, or hydroelectric sources, so it's cleaner than any diesel, even taking the usual 14% transmission losses into account.

--

[brian eiland]

An associate recently sent me this message....

On December 26th the first production catamaran, a 43ft Leopard to be
chartered in the BVIs by Moorings, with the Glacier Bay diesel electric
system left Cape Town for Miami. They hope to display it a the Miami
Boat show in February.

It has the same 2 x 35hp electric motors as Asanagi but only one of the
25kw gensets. Therefore the motors are only powered as 2 x 16hp motors.
Usually the 43ft Leopard is fitted with 2 x 30hp Yanmars with a top
speed of about 7.5kts. With the electric motors their top speed is about
8.2kts

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

An associate recently sent me this message....

On December 26th the first production catamaran, a 43ft Leopard to be
chartered in the BVIs by Moorings, with the Glacier Bay diesel electric
system left Cape Town for Miami. They hope to display it a the Miami
Boat show in February.

It has the same 2 x 35hp electric motors as Asanagi but only one of the
25kw gensets. Therefore the motors are only powered as 2 x 16hp motors.
Usually the 43ft Leopard is fitted with 2 x 30hp Yanmars with a top
speed of about 7.5kts. With the electric motors their top speed is about
8.2kts

What's the long range cruising speed with that single 25kW genset though? I assume the top speed given involves drawing from the batteries.

With that caveat, diesel electric makes especially good sense on big cats because it replaces two diesels with one, plus there's plenty of sail horsepower/speed for good regen.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by mattotoole

....With that caveat, diesel electric makes especially good sense on big cats because it replaces two diesels with one, plus there's plenty of sail horsepower/speed for good regen.

Maybe it replaces 3 diesel engines with one, the two propulsion engines and the aux generator engine

I was never happy with Solomon's emphasis on 'regeneration' with their electric wheel boat propulsion systems. In a car or motor vehicle where you need to apply braking, the regeneration of this potential lost energy makes sense. Putting the brakes on our vessels (extra drag) just doesn't make sense to me. Generally we are striving to get the best forward performance and economy from our vessel rather than inducing drag for what purpose?

[brian eiland]

Glacier Bay, Inc.'s OSSA Powerlitetm propulsion motors win Sail Magazine's Freeman K. Pittman 2006 innovation award

Sail Magazine has announced the winners of the 2006 Freeman K. Pitman award for innovation in the sailing industry. OSSA Powerlite synchronous dc neodymium permanent magnet propulsion motors received an innovation award in the systems category.

OSSA Powerlite is a family of new diesel electric propulsion gensets, motors, and house load integrated power systems for yachts that provides a new standard for quiet, fuel economy, flexibility, and simplicity.
OSSA Powerlite electric propulsion motors turn a propeller independently of the speed of a diesel engine in a genset. This allows the prop and the engine to run at their most efficient speeds independently, and without the additional cost, weight, and friction of a transmission. The result is better performance and major fuel savings.


For more information and a look at the new website on Glacier Bay’s OSSA Powerlitetm system see:

http://www.ossapowerlite.com/

[Sander Rave]

Originally Posted by cyclops

What is the complete cost and eff. of any electric powered boat when you add in the pollution and cost of burning fuel at a powerplant to generate electricity, transmission losses and repairs, cleaning the plants gases. Most people do not add in the battery companies costs and pollution either. Each time energy is converted it loses some eff. Do a oil in ground to prop turning eff. study and anything electric loses out. Electric power is a very wastefull form of power. And I like electrics.

Cyclops, what is your calculation based on? I have a calculation proving just the opposit. Maybe it's because of basic assumption, maybe it's the cost of electricity. in The netherlands electricity is relatively cheap, and fossil fuels are four times more expensive as in the US of oil.

My calculation is for a small boat and little power: 10 hp 4 stroke outboard, 11 hp diesel inboard and a 3.6kW electric propulsion and about 100 hours usage a year. That includes batteries.
Batteries are recycled in The Netherlands

I'm willing to learn, so please tell me what your calculation is based upon.
Regards,

[brian eiland]

I just recently referenced Glacier Bay's updated site, but in particular I would draw your attention to this particular section in case you missed it:

"How diesel-electric propulsion saves fuel"

...pretty honest evaluation without many 'inflated claims'. One quote, "As you will see in the exploration that follows, what diesel-electric propulsion technology does is to create the potential for fuel saving. It does not, in and of itself, automatically provide it."

[Vega]

I think that the concept (diesel- electric) has a lot of potencial for cruising boats (for the ones that want to stay out of marinas). If you need a diesel and a generator, then the system has already advantages and the price is almost the same. The flexibility is huge, the consumption is 40% less, an electric motor lasts forever with no maintenance and the generator turns at slower speeds than a conventional motor, is more silent with less vibrations and has less maintenance.
The electric motor is a lot smaller than a conventional motor and that will permit a revolution in the interior set-up (interior design) of the boats, because you can put the generator in any place and not at the axis of the boat.
It will be a question of time before prices come down.
Malo and Nigel Calder are working on adapting it to Malo yachts and I believe that in one or two years Malo will ofer diesel-electric in their boats as an option.
I have seen the Panda Diesel-electric systems at Dusseldorf boat show and they look good

[bonding]

I have ordered a sail boat. Most of the things can be customized. Since I will have a genset, I think it might be good to have the diesel electric system. Everyone says that it is a good system with a lot of advantages. But except cost, nobody gives any adverse comment. Boat yard tells me that since it is new in sailing boat, maintenance may be difficult and may not be as reliable as a diesel engine. Can anyone give me some advice?

[Sander Rave]

Hard to tell as this argument is not stated. As set out earlier by Vega, the electromotor needs much less mainenance. It lasts longer. What kind of advice do you need? How much power do you need when fitting a diesel engine? Then it is possible to say something about the electric power needed and the size of your genset, type of wiring etc.

[Amy Hu]

Would somebody introduce some boatdesigners to me, or kindly tell me from where we can find some orders of shipper and boats. We are shipping builder
in China, we have strong ability ti build all different kind of boats and shippers.Our new website will be on the internet very shortly. Don't hesittate to tell if you know how. I assure you any successful order introduced by you, you will get a very good reward.
Thanks for your earlier attention and reply.
Email:amyhu2000@yahoo.com

[Amy Hu]

Would somebody introduce some boatdesigners to me, or kindly tell me from where we can find some orders of shipper and boats. We are shipping builder
in China, we have strong ability to build all different kind of boats and shippers.Our new website will be on the internet very shortly. Don't hesittate to tell me if you know how. I assure you that any successful order introduced by you, you will get a very good reward.
Thanks for your earlier attention and reply.
Amy Hu
Tel: 86-755-2642 2827 Fax: 86-755-2789 2189
Cell:86-137139 50418
Email:amyhu2000@yahoo.com amyhu2005@163.com