Diesel/Electric Propulsion for Sailboats

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by thudpucker

...Did it say that Bike was driven by an electric motor, but the power for the motor came from a Gas engine running a Generator?

I didn't see any such statement ?

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Motorcycle race day shows off Parker's high-performance electric traction motor

That is a advertisement (insufficiently hidden) of a el motor. Nothing else.

Where does the power come from? And what has it to do with Hybrid propulsion?

There is no lack of high power el. motors at the market, what we don´t have is energy storage.

Therefore:

no news, but more sales drivel.............

[Raggi_Thor]

He, he,
one strange thing with electricity in Norway (and Europe?) is that when it's used to charge batteries in cars, boats, bikes, buses and ferries, then it's "Zero Carbon" and "Climate Neutral", while if the same electricity is used to heat your house, or your water for showering or melting the snow in your drive way(!), then it's made from burning coal and thus emit 1kg of CO2 per kWh!

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by apex1

That is a advertisement (insufficiently hidden) of a el motor. Nothing else.

Where does the power come from? And what has it to do with Hybrid propulsion?

There is no lack of high power el. motors at the market, what we don´t have is energy storage.

Therefore:

no news, but more sales drivel.............

Granted it is 'promotion driven' news, but this is just part of the new development steps being made everyday in new electric propulsion, marine or land based.
Quote from press release, "motor uses external cooling, allowing for very high motor speeds — up to four times the catalog rating. This combination of cooling and packaging gives the MPP traction motor on this bike a power density higher than that of most, if not all, traction motors available today. Coupling the cooling technology with an innovative winding design yields much higher torque per unit size than conventionally constructed permanent magnet motors and creates the core for our standard product line that can deliver 20 kW to 350 kW of power output with 95% efficiency. Notice that there is roughly a 17% difference between the peak and continuous output power. The ability for the Parker motor to accomplish this is through our proprietary dual-cooling configuration that I mentioned earlier. The efficiency with which we are able to expel heat generated within the motor gives the Parker MPP Traction motor an edge."
____________________________________________________________
Here was another incrimental gain with respect to an electric powered personal water craft (PWC)
"We realized that we had been focusing on the motor, not the pump. In the same way that automotive electric propulsion is just about to go through a revolution of design because it doesn't require the same centrally located ICE we have had for the last 100 years, we began exploring what could be achieved with different propulsion methods."

"Once we began looking, we came across a propulsion technology originally developed for military applications that had not been previously used in watercraft and we have now acquired an exclusive license for using the technology on watercraft. After testing, we are now confident it makes our objectives possible both weight and price wise."

"With twin electric shaft-less drives of far less modest horsepower output, we are expecting about the same top speed as with the 65 bhp gas engine, which will give us 65 mph. In some ways the US Coast Guard's limit of 65 mph for watercraft has worked to our advantage as otherwise we'd probably be seeing 80 mph watercraft by now. Aiming at a non-moving target of 65 mph has been a huge advantage."

"The PWC is a huge water pump and the existing manufacturers have ignored the inefficiencies of the jet drive system currently in use by pouring horsepower and fuel on it. The inefficiencies in the horsepower-thrust conversion are quite obscene and that's were we've been focusing our energy."

"The propulsion pods we're using have an electric motor self contained within them. Each one has one moving part on the internal wall of the thrust pod, so it's a direct drive and it has eliminated many of the losses and made the system extremely efficient. What started out as a 6 horsepower motor became two 12 horsepower pods that are far more efficient."

"Our tank tests have proven to us that we can achieve between 34.9 and 36.5 pounds of thrust per horsepower compared to 28 pounds of thrust from a gasoline engine. By going electric and having a self contained pod that isn't connected to anything else other than a power source and a controller, we have achieved a similar freedom of design as automotive designers are now experiencing with electric motors. It means we don't need a big fat motor and a drive train in line with the motor."
Jet, Jet Pump, Waterjet, Jet Drive vs Prop

Brian,

nothing wrong with studying the market. Probably a real improvement that motor.
But our problem is energy storage, read: accumulators.
As long as nothing substantial comes up that road (and it does not for another 15 years), we don´t have Hybrid systems on boats.
Except for some inland waterways and some coastal daysailer toys, maybe.

Due to the fact, that we have already very efficient El. motors on the market, any further improvement is cosmetical.
From, say, 97% today to 98% tomorrow is a joke.
The 100 kw stored in one ton of accumulators have to be brought up to 1000.
That is wishful thinking for a very long time from now, probably longer than my estimated 15 years because science does not even provide the next step of thinking, let alone mass production.

I did not mean to criticize your post, just make clear, we don´t have a profit out of it.

Regards
Richard

[thudpucker]

I was dissapointed in the post. It was just somebody saying; "Look at this" but there was really no reason to look at it from our standpoint.
How does is work? How can we use it?
When you see a good interesting idea, and decide to post it, make sure there is something pertinent in it for us.

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by apex1

Brian,

nothing wrong with studying the market. Probably a real improvement that motor.
But our problem is energy storage, read: accumulators.
As long as nothing substantial comes up that road (and it does not for another 15 years), we don´t have Hybrid systems on boats.
Except for some inland waterways and some coastal daysailer toys, maybe.

I did not mean to criticize your post, just make clear, we don´t have a profit out of it.
Richard

Couldn't agree with you more Richard. I've been preaching energy storage for years now...example, some flywheel energy storage themes.
FLYWHEEL Energy Storage Systems
Flywheel Energy Storage Systems ( .....verses latest battery systems?)

Storing electrical energy has always been a real problem,….how to do any large quantity, in a compact manner, and how to be able to extract (and charge) it quickly. It’s a problem that begs for solutions, and some of those solutions will take us forward into a new energy future for the world….storing energy beyond the ‘chemistries’ of burning fuels and electrical batteries......

[brian eiland]

Just reopened this subject thread in case some new members sought to access it for a lot of its content, and for them to have access other members would previously contributed to it.

[dinoa]

I’m interested in building a back up gasoline-electric propulsion system for a single engine deep V type boat planning hull, 25 ft overall, beam 8 ft, 3 tons displacement. The requirement of the auxiliary propulsion system will be to achieve 80% hull speed which I think should be possible with a DC PM brushed 3kW pod motor if the prop is adequately large (say 10") and slow turning. It will be supported by the cavitation plate of the Bravo One stern drive unit or on a pivoting leg (similar to the stern drive unit) or a swinging leg articulated from on off centerline position on the transom.

Batteries will not be the primary energy source and only large enough for main engine starting and house loads plus any capacity if necessary to stabilize the power supplied by a motor generator. The motor generator will be built to power the pod motor unit if possible without batteries and without a motor controller just directly coupled to the pod by electric power lines. There will be no reverse, steering, regeneration, speed regulation or efficiency requirement. A small DC-DC converter or belt driven alternator may be used to top up the batteries.

What would be the best way to do this? What motor generator - propulsion motor combination would be required to avoid controllers?

Dino

Originally posted in diesel electric thread. I was hoping it might generate some interest here

[brian eiland]

Thought I would bring up this subject again under a new subject thread with hopes to consolidate new material along with 3-4 other threads that have addressed the subject.

I've added this cross-reference posting so as not to lose lots of valuable postings that were made here.

New Subject Thread
Hybrid Electric Propulsion for Boats, Diesel-Electric, etc

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Thought I would bring up this subject again under a new subject thread with hopes to consolidate new material along with 3-4 other threads that have addressed the subject.

I've added this cross-reference posting so as not to lose lots of valuable postings that were made here.

New Subject Thread
Hybrid Electric Propulsion for Boats, Diesel-Electric, etc

Well forget that idea. That new subject thread I started got hi-jacked.