Bedini motor and other joe cell playing with energy conservation

Thank you mydauphin for this valuable explanation.

And thank you kerosene that you will provide a link! I have built boats out of it, so I know a little about that material already.
What I did not know is, that the energy spent to produce Aluminium is stored in the metal and can be recycled to propel a boat!
A very interesting (unfortunately a very childish and in terms of physics wrong) theory.

[kerosene]

I didn't say - or mean to say anyway - that all energy used in mining could be recovered. What I am saying that it is no surprise that you can recover energy from turning Al to Al-oxides. And that everyone should understand that this is not feasible or "free" energy.

You seem to through away insults more than anything Apex - that really makes it hard to understand what your point is and who you are addressing.

My point in short is - wasting aluminum in hydrogen production seems pointless considering how much energy is spent in getting that said aluminum in the 1st place.

As the article talking about aluminum in hydrogen stated it pretty clearly:

"However, the cost of aluminum could be reduced by recycling it from the alumina using a process called fused salt electrolysis. The aluminum could be produced at competitive prices if the recycling process were carried out with electricity generated by a nuclear power plant or windmills."

ie. when you use aluminum to create hydrogen you need to use elctrolysis (powered by something else) to recover said aluminum.

You´re right kerosene in addressing alu as one of the greatest energy consumers (destroyers), but we have no substitution at present.
I understood your statement above as if you would say the energy spent equals the energy we can get out of it. You should edit that post to be understood better. Yes I have no problem to call a Idiot by his name you´re right, but that I spread insults more than anything, definetily is a wrong statement, this forum can widely tell you the opposite! It´s Kistinie and his fairy tales crap that brings me on edge.
Regards
Richard
and this addition was worth to be noticed, I agree!:
"My point in short is - wasting aluminum in hydrogen production seems pointless considering how much energy is spent in getting that said aluminum in the 1st place."

[kerosene]

all right - I added "all" in bold to my previous post.

I am sure you have provided useful input in other threads - I only remember your posts from these HHO - magic hydrogen ones. Lets try fresh - I apologize for blaming you from being all name calling.

And to be honest I think we are on the same side of the argument - most of the hydrogen talk is optimistic at best - and clear scams at worst.

The fools are in between - the ones who believe the scams in good faith but don't understand the problems in basic premise.

I have seen many people explain how one can run a car with 20Amp 12vdc powered electrolysis pot (joe cell) but also explain that it is not perpetual motion machine as the joe cell needs that electricity.
If one cannot understand that using 240w power to create energy to drive 50kw (or more) engine is against physics then education has failed.

BUT I don't think calling people by names is productive either- better to try to explain the reasons why this is not possible - at least confused bystanders will understand why its nonsense.

You´re right it is´nt productive to call them by names, and I did not mean to be productive. This chap is nerving the Forum with his unmature ideas and statements of energy for free and similar crap since month. I contributed in a severe and polite manner to some of his former threads, he did not even read the articles he was lead to, but argued that we did provide critics only and nothing constructive.
How can one be constructive if he is told that all he does is only to make a fortune overnight and to destroy the environment. And the like.
Sorry that my harsh way of reply to Kistines posts did insult you, that was not meant this way.
And as a addition: I found a old post that sometimes should be brought up to remember (for me as well, I know)! see:

Originally Posted by Guillermo

But, Mike, what do you (and all of us) win with that? What positive thing does that attitude bring to these forums? Getting everybody angry with everybody? Is that what all of us expect?
You yourself said in other thread that it is not possible to change people, so, even if we think someone is stupid, are we going to change him/her by being rude? No, most people will react and then be rude on their side towards the offending person. So there we go in an spiral of real stupidity, that contributes nothing to the final reason of these forums.
On my side, I'm not here to come into 'tavern' discussions, but to learn (a lot) and contribute with my bit of knowledge when I can. If I want tavern discussions I go to the tavern, not here.
I've tried to follow this pattern myself, although I recognise that a couple of times I felt obliged to respond, because things were coming to a limit I felt something had to be done. I've found that some of the 'profesional' offenders here try to make themselves bigger by pissing others off the forums. And I'm not available to that, because I appreciate very much what we have here (thanks, Jeff), as I learn much more than I contribute. And for sure I learn nothing from permanent insults, posts without content, bad temper and tavern like discussions.
And now is good to see that Jeff has come into action and put some basic rules to avoid these forums keeping in the undesirable mood they were last times. That's going to bring back again things into a reasonable level of conversation and all of us will benefit from that and keep on learning a lot.
All the best.

[mydauphin]

There is a group of bizarre people here that wish the universe was different than it is. They wish boats could fly by anti-gravity using multi-dimensional wornholes. Some free energy believers are also anti-establishment and are trying to make political statements. This forum is for people to learn and share information about boats and ship building, design and cruising... not science fiction.

I love sci-fi, I love weird science, I love cutting edge...
But we live in planet earth - tell me no lies or ******** or you will get a fight....

[Boston]

aluminum is a horrible choice as a fuel source
the embodied energy of aluminum being one of the highest of any metal



now I know why the flicker did not mention the type of metal being used
they are trying to present themselves as being environmentally responsible and presenting an alternative and superior fuel source

if the process described above is being used by anybody thinking they are doing the world a favor
they are dead wrong





I would urge all of you to please consider the whole system when choosing not only a fuel but a material to derive that fuel from





as for availability we need to also consider a simple reality

Based on a recent United States Geological Study, Lester Brown informs us that we will exhaust known stores of several vital metals within the next two to three generations, based on a reasonable estimation of 2% growth in extraction.

while there are various ways to measure embodied energy

Definitions of Embodied energy on the Web:

Embodied energy refers to the quantity of energy required to manufacture, and supply to the point of use, a product, material or service. ...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embodied_energy

How much energy was required to extract, process, package, transport, install, and recycle or dispose of materials that make up a building’s ...
www.cdc.gov/healthyplaces/terminology.htm

the total amount of energy used in the extraction of raw materials the manufacture of the product and finally the transporting of product to where it is used
www.stepin.org/glossary.php

The energy used during the entire life cycle of a commodity ie manufacture, transportation and disposal.
www.esd.rgs.org/glossarypopup.html

The sum total of the energy necessary - from raw material extraction, transport, manufacturing, assembly, installation plus the capital, environmental and other costs - used to produce a service or product from its beginning through its disassembly, deconstruction and/or decompostion.
http://www.oikos.com/library/green_b..._glossary.html

Amount of energy consumed in the extraction, manufacture, transport, construction and assembly on site of building materials. It will also include the energy costs of disposal of waste or surplus materials.
http://www.sdg-nottinghamshire.org.u...pendixiiii.htm

All of the energy invested in bringing a material to its final product, including transportation.
www.reddawn.com/glossary.html

that energy bound up in a material as a result of factors such as extraction, processing and manufacture.
www.deai.ie/glossary-of-BER-terms.html

it is not a mater or debate as the the extremely high cost of aluminum

as a fuel source
aluminum is second only to petroleum in its potential to destroy the environment
any fuel system that consumes aluminum as a mater of coarse
is not a viable replacement to fossil fuels
no mater what the good intentions of the inventor may have been

Kistinie:

I have pulled out my Yanmar Diesel (too heavy), now I am seeking for a electric propulsion of equal performance, help.

Forum reply:
not possible

Kistinie:

I can produce electricity on my 2,5 ton multihull by PV or windmill or by prop in reverse cycle! Very cheap and efficient.

Forum reply:
no, you must not forget battery, inverter, controller and the like!

Kistinie:

How to make a cheap diesel generator?

Forum reply:

buy one

Kistinie:

but with water injection to the exhaust i can run a diesel genny at half the cost and double the output!

Forum reply:

no, that is not possible, you destroy the manifold in hours by injecting saltwater.

Kistinie:

I do´nt like you... you do´nt contribute to my alternative thoughts.

My reply:

Idiot

[kistinie]

"A lie told often enough becomes accepted truth." : Vladimir Lenin
Is this the reason of your repetitions ?

When you "quote" me, please avoid inventions, i never complained about the fact you like me or not.
Ideas counts in a debate, not individuals.
Therefore, you contribute to my ideas, as you give me all the bullets to kill your corrupted devices.


Hybrid electric propulsion will be less expensive than ICE as to make the full device you need less part, less work.
Lowering higher actual price is only a question of industrialisation, of mass production.
Oil will still be used, but on a sailing boat, only a third will be needed for the same service.

About water injection in exhaust that is bringing a part of the power gain water is recycled in the exhaust (Renault patent 2005) and the first Peugeot and renault V6 engines (idiot manufacturers ?) will be equipped by the end of the year ...on production cars !!!

Water will also be steamed by exhaust heat and injected to the inlet on some renault production engines exploiting the pantone principle. (But will not be named pantone !)
Officially they say that this recycling of water is for easy use, but the true reason is only marketing and psychological, as it would make user understand an ICE runs better with water added at all the combustion stages.

For easy marine applications you can use a water cooled manifold connected to a close circuit
http://www.atkinsrotarymarine.com/index.php?pag=2

For fresh water use, direct injection is fine
On heavy boats water can be also taken from drinking water tanks.

Please return on earth, world is moving, all this is nothing new, water injection works well whatever the way you use it ...By the way did you remember Messerschmitt Bf 109 running on methanol and water ?
http://www.chuckhawks.com/me-109.htm

Only new for civil applications in fact :-)


About an hybrid group going on electricity, veg oil + propane / hydrogen for propulsion and generation, light and affordable.
The product i have designed seems to be liked by many designers, i will open a new thread to present it.
I guess the word co generation is a mystery to you ?
The time when heat of engine was lost is almost over.
Heat does electricity or cold, and without belts, compressor and all these expensive and heavy add on groups just like now
Please take a look, if you can, to a modern army co-generator


The power of democracy is that you can't burn directly the idiots any more, you need to be smart and hide !

------

Aluminium final efficiency or total overall cost isn't as good as petrol.
And after ? Only cost counts ?

Aluminium doesn't kill seal life like fuel when boat leaks or sink... Erika ? Remember ?
Aluminium doesn't smell a cancerous odour inside and around my boat
Aluminium is stable more than 4 months (petrol is given stable for 4 months only)
Hydrogen doesn't pollute.


So it is certainly not the best solution but AL can have a real interest for marine applications


---------

Now this was the easy part of this thread ;-)


What about this :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=caLgt...eature=related

What is happening here ?
What is this movement going across the 316L steel tubes ?

[mudman]

Read the comments on that video that you just posted. It will explain alot.

[kistinie]

All kind of comments ! how do i do my selection ?
Saying baaaahhh is not enough

Can you be more factual and technical ?
I accept it can be junk science but i want evidences

In France i have worked with an university for this in Nice
the name is ZETETIQUE
The aim is to do the distinction between real an junk science.


Thanks !

[Boston]

its no big deal to mix a few chemicals and get a convection loop going during a reaction
its not anything new

chemicals will not save us from the present environmental disaster
what will is an immediate reduction in population
or an immediate reduction in eating
take your pick
cause were fast running out of fish and farmland
that and the apple grown down the street was shipped round the world a few times before it gets to the market also just down the street is going to be whats the end of us

not some crackpot free fuel that we can use to ship that apple round the planet a few more time with before it ends up where it started

thing is fuel isnt free no mater what source it comes from
even Tesla abandoned his research on drawing energy from the Shoeman gap for a reason everyone loves to ignore.

its simple reality
if you want to solve some of the worlds issues there is only one way about it
reduce the population

inventing "free" energy is about as helpful as chasing windmills
Don Quixote style

[kistinie]

We have destroyed our earth...this is a reality.

But how do you think it is technically possible to get this convection movement across s steel ?
Sorry but i do not get it

I never spoke of free energy but of TOC.
Solar panel TOC is mainly...the price you buy it
My CITROEN ZX turbo diesel TOC is the incredible low € price i bought it and the 4.5 litre i give for 100Km plus a few things like tires, oil and insurance.
My trimaran TOC is ...hell !!!

Some solutions give much lower TOC than others

My idea is to bust the best technical solution, and why not play with new solutions.
The dark energy and dark matter is an open door to something new.

joe cell or back EMF from Bedini, i do not care if it is an open door to something new and interesting.
To be more precise, i do not see why we wouldn't find a way to demonstrate the dark matter anomaly on earth.

Nothing more behind this subject.

I am ,not an illuminated, Spinoza and René Descartes remains my favourite masters !
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baruch_Spinoza
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ren%C3%A9_Descartes

Originally Posted by kistinie

I am ,not an illuminated,

The first proper statement you made! Thank you for that.

[kistinie]

Aaahhh !
APEX !

Stop playing on words and answer the question about this video
What is the trick ?