An actual hybrid application

[Mr. Know-It-All]

There are some merit for hybrid technology, but it will not replace your diesel. Fuel could be saved though.

Assuming most diesels for sailboats are overpowered, a smaller diesel could be installed in tandem with an electric motor. The electric motor could be used when extra power is needed (in emergency situations). What is the least acceptable range for this extra power? For cruising speeds (when using the diesel engine) how much power is actually used? Could you for example downsize your diesel in your sailboat to 70% of the original size? What would the fuel savings be? Since many diesels does not have maximum efficiency at max power, maybe you would use more fuel if you had a hybrid engine? What kind of gearbox could be used? What would the costs be? Could you actually save money? Of course, this depends on how much you use your engine.

Some hybrid engines have been on the market for a while. What's the real world performance?

[FAST FRED]

What's the real world performance?

It liberates high volumes of CASH from owners with big egos.

FF

Originally Posted by Mr. Know-It-All

Just NO, in both cases.

A wrong assumption.

No, there are no "hybrid engines" on the market, and there will never be any!

Try to understand what HYBRID means before starting a thread you have absolutely no clue about.

All statements and assumptions above are just wrong, or miss the point.

[Mr. Know-It-All]

Well, for me a hybrid is a mix between two engine types. Not regeneration of energy while breaking, that will of course not work for a boat.

A hybrid system could mean downsizing of the engine, which could potentially save some fuel. But probably not much. The hybrid system must of course add very little extra cost.

[Questor]

Originally Posted by Mr. Know-It-All

Not regeneration of energy while breaking, that will of course not work for a boat.

Regenerative charging might be possible by installing a tube running through the hull with a turbine mounted in it.Engineering the door mechanism would be tricky. Weight of the regenerative apparatus would have to be considered against the value of energy capture. Regenerative charging might be viable on short ferry runs where vessels have relatively equal balances between acceleration and deceleration.

[PAR]

Regenerative charging certainly is possible and is currently preformed in marine applications.

As Richard as pointed out, your assumsion of diesel sizing in sailboats is incorrect, possibly showing a lack of understanding in this regard, though this is an equal bit of speculation based in goo.

This said, it's in light of what appears to be an apparent lack of understanding of the forces and concepts involved, in the dynamic relationships between powering a particular hull form, it does make me wonder about the harshness of the preceding posts. Then a quick look at your past 16 posts explains it all

A hybrid is a marriage of any two things, to accomplish a task or goal.

[mydauphin]

Originally Posted by Questor

Regenerative charging might be possible by installing a tube running through the hull with a turbine mounted in it.Engineering the door mechanism would be tricky. Weight of the regenerative apparatus would have to be considered against the value of energy capture. Regenerative charging might be viable on short ferry runs where vessels have relatively equal balances between acceleration and deceleration.

To say nothing of the weight of the water in the tube. Easier to just use propeller in the water

[Questor]

Originally Posted by mydauphin

To say nothing of the weight of the water in the tube. Easier to just use propeller in the water

In a perfect world such a tube would have a large flared opening in the front of the hull or hulls to force large volumes of pressurized water into the turbine tube.With adequate design a ferry might be able to rise high enough out of the water when empty to drain the tube via gravity.Once drained the tube could be sealed by mechanically operated covers.

Other possibilities could include leaving the tube flooded at all times and just opening doors during braking or the tube could be used for both braking and propulsion.

[Fanie]

Sorry, off topic...

Mr. Know-It-All

Are you my SON :-O
No, I don't have any money.

[daiquiri]

Originally Posted by Questor

In a perfect world such a tube would have a large flared opening in the front of the hull or hulls to force large volumes of pressurized water into the turbine tube.With adequate design a ferry might be able to rise high enough out of the water when empty to drain the tube via gravity.Once drained the tube could be sealed by mechanically operated covers.
Other possibilities could include leaving the tube flooded at all times and just opening doors during braking or the tube could be used for both braking and propulsion.

Whatever the technical possibilities, they need to meet the technical and economical convenience first.
Since you're talking about a ferry, consider this case:

A 706 ft (215 m) ferry ship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pride_of_Rotterdam) having a Gross Tonnage (GT) of about 60,000 t, mass of 25,500 t, moving at the cruising speed of 22 kts (Froude number = 0.26), which means 11.3 m/s in SI units. Say that a typical trip lasts 6 hrs, during which it will cover about 130 nm.
The power efficiency of such a ship is typically 0.025 kWh/(nm GT) (Source: Wartsilla - but it can be easily calculated from the installed power).
So, a 130 nm trip will require about 200,000 kWh of energy, which is 720,000 MJ. It accounts for both hull resistance and various hotel loads.

At 22 kts, a mass of 25,500,000 kgs has a cinetic energy of 1,630 MJ. So if (in an ideal world you are talking about) you managed to capture all of that energy, you would still save only 0.23% (zero dot twentythree percent) of the total energy consumed for the trip.
But in a real world you would be able to recover at most a 0.1%-0.15%, about 1,000.00 MJ. Bunker fuel n.6 gives about 44 MJ/liter (which becomes, say, 10-12 MJ/liter at the prop), so the recovered energy equals about 100 liters of fuel for a 130 nm trip.

Now you calculate how much would such a recovery system cost and the payback time for the investment...

[CatBuilder]

Originally Posted by Mr. Know-It-All

There are some merit for hybrid technology, but it will not replace your diesel. Fuel could be saved though.

Assuming most diesels for sailboats are overpowered, a smaller diesel could be installed in tandem with an electric motor. The electric motor could be used when extra power is needed (in emergency situations). What is the least acceptable range for this extra power? For cruising speeds (when using the diesel engine) how much power is actually used? Could you for example downsize your diesel in your sailboat to 70% of the original size? What would the fuel savings be? Since many diesels does not have maximum efficiency at max power, maybe you would use more fuel if you had a hybrid engine? What kind of gearbox could be used? What would the costs be? Could you actually save money? Of course, this depends on how much you use your engine.

Some hybrid engines have been on the market for a while. What's the real world performance?

A simple reason this would be difficult is that when you need that "extra power" of both electric and diesel engines, you are then draining your battery bank.

How many hours of this "extra power" do you have before your batteries are dead and you are back to an undersized diesel being your only propulsion... in an emergency?

I think that's where it would get difficult.

[wardd]

during ww2 the germans found that by cruising on batteries submerged and diesel they could extend their range and endurance

[mydauphin]

Originally Posted by wardd

during ww2 the germans found that by cruising on batteries submerged and diesel they could extend their range and endurance

More submariners died from failing electrical systems than the depth charges dropped on them.

[Questor]

[quote=daiquiri;396049

Now you calculate how much would such a recovery system cost and the payback time for the investment...[/QUOTE]

As I suggested , the proposed system might be viable on a short run ferry. I've been thinking about the concept during the past few hours while shopping. I'm reasonably sure the reason I thought of it is that I have seen a ferry like that on a documentary before.

[mydauphin]

Originally Posted by Questor

As I suggested , the proposed system might be viable on a short run ferry. I've been thinking about the concept during the past few hours while shopping. I'm reasonably sure the reason I thought of it is that I have seen a ferry like that on a documentary before.

Something like ferry that takes people around Adventureland in Disney World. That type of ferry. Questor when they talk about ferries around here, their talking about the ones in Janes Ships. The kind that have 10,000 hp motors. Your talking seldom used water taxis.