Laptop buying help

[DGreenwood]

This may have been covered but not recently, as far as I have seen.

I attended IBEX in Oct. and noticed that engineers and designers were using laptops more than ever.
I noted that many had Dells, and athough the brand is of interest, I am curious what features stand out as important to the folks who are useing them regularly for design work.
For example:
-Is screen size and image quality very important or just good to have?

-Does performance improvements, i.e. processor speed, ram and video card, affect your use. By improvements I mean above and beyond typical recent equipment performance.

-What other add on would regular users get to improve their comfort in running typical design packages such as Rhino, Solidworks, Autocad, Fast ship etc.(Not FEA or CFD)

[Andrew Mason]

I've used a mid-size laptop (2 kg, 14" screen) as my sole machine for about the last 3 years and have no problems with it. When in the office I connect a standard keyboard, external mouse and large monitor (24") to it, but can quickly disconnect it to take it home or travel.

Definitely the best of both worlds.

[marshmat]

I'm using a Toshiba A70 right now.... has its, er, quirks but I do like it.

Monitor- Go big, go hi-resolution. I have 15.4" at 1280x800, it's acceptable. 15" at 1024x768, I'd say would be the absolute minimum if you intend to do any CAD. Smaller is for businessmen who only need to do email and accounting. The new 17" screens at 1600 pixels or more are great for CAD.

RAM is your strongest weapon against slowness. 512 meg is the minimum, I highly recommend 1024 meg (or more if you have the $$). A pair of one-gig chips would be more than sufficient for anything you'd imagine doing on it.

Processor-wise, you need to decide whether power or battery life is more important. If it's power, something like a Pentium 4M-HT or Athlon mobile is your weapon of choice. If battery life wins out, the Centrino chipset and related processor is pretty good, but prepare to take a hit on speed.

If you're doing 3D stuff (Rhino, SW, etc) you will want a proper 3D graphics card with at least 64-128MB of its own memory. Some cheap ones just steal system RAM, make sure you check. Without a decent card, everything will bog down or hang whenever you rotate a view. Native OpenGL/DirectX support is mandatory.

Go for big hard drives. I have 60 gigs on the Toshiba, and it's already 64% full after only a year.

First addition would be a decent optical wheel mouse. (A $15 Labtec mouse is plenty.) A full-size external keyboard would be next, the number pad and shortcut keys are handy. Also a good powered USB hub since you'll run out of ports pretty quick. Spare battery and spare charger if you intend to travel a lot. If you're on the road a lot, a small (150 watt) inverter is handy to keep the thing charged in the car. If you've gone small screen (or even if you've gone big screen) a nice big hi-res desk monitor for when you're at the office is handy.

<rant alert>
On Dell... I have a few beefs with them. A very disproportionate number of the hardware and OS failures I've had to deal with in the last year have been Dells. Dell, like many companies, tweaks the OS a bit and adds their own apps. Many of these tweaks and apps have been known to be buggy. Unlike Liebermann, which actually optimizes everything, Dell's mods tend to just bog things down and you find yourself looking at Task Manager a lot more than is healthy. Not to mention s*itty customer service. MDG's another one to watch for, they have good equipment but they're too sleazy with the sales tactics to be considered trustworthy.
<end rant>

[Andrew Mason]

The Centrino chipset is a lot faster than most people appreciate. A 1.7GHz Centrino processor (Pentium-M) has about the same floating point performance as a 2.4 GHz P4.

As to the size of laptop you choose, it depends very much on the amount of travelling you do. If you do a fair bit of travel, light weight, compact size and long battery life are paramount. If the machine will sit on your desk for the vast majority of its life with an occasional trip away, a larger screen and a shorter battery life is an acceptable trade-off.

[DGreenwood]

Thanks...all great info and just what I was looking for.
The physical size of the machine is not of great concern to me as I am healthy enough to carry it around with no problem, for the little bit I would do that. Mostly from the house to work, using it in the car on the ferry ride, occasionaly on the train or plane.
I spent over six hours on different forms of transport last weekend. While all those around me were getting some work done and watching movies, I sat and fumed and read cheesy in-flight mags. That cinched it...I have to get a laptop.

Dell is one of the companies I am considering but I have had some trouble with them in the past. And, I am told, now that all of their service desk calls go to India, it is very difficult to get any satisfaction from them.

I don't know Leiberman? I'll google, but you seem to recommend them?

I had intended to get a 17" but was probably headed for too little processor and ram...I'll reconsider.


Thanks

[ABoatGuy]

Check out the Dell portable workstations. M50, M70 etc. They're expensive, and probably heavier then most, but most of the high end graphics programs are certified and they definetely rip.

I believe support does go to India, but get used to it and learn how to work with it. I'm pretty certain it isn't going away and if the Indian tech support market doesn't expand exponentialy to other companies I would be very suprised. There are some pretty intelligent people working there. Try to get past level one. If you have a real problem, ask for a senior technician. After they're sure you have it plugged in, they will usually accomidate you.

[JPC]

Noting your comment of the in-flight magazine, small format laptops are generally more pleasant to use on an airline tray table, particularly if the seat ahead is reclined. One cannot always open a full-size laptop completely, and your elbows might be in the back of your seat as you try to type.

I think it depends very much on your applications (both vis software, as noted by Marshmat, and where you're deploying the thing). Most of my current work is non-graphical and, thus, not too processor or screen critical. In the office, the laptop is plugged into a docking station, so I have all ports, drives, 19" screen and real keyboard - this is 75% of use and I would hate to be working on a laptop all day w/o a separate keyboard and screen (I'd have a separate desktop if docking stations weren't available, no matter how large the laptop). But the laptop itself is one of the smallest format notebooks without internal removable format drives, but with built-in wireless, and with excellent battery life. For lugging around, popping open in an airport wireless area or on the plane it is super. If I know that I'll be setting up office in a hotel room for an extended period, sometimes I'll splurge and bring my bigger laptop, but usually not.

I think that laptops are still not "desktop replacements" no matter how much power they have and that it's worth thinking about both your desk-bound and mobile application, and actual time spent on both. There is not a universal "do-everything" machine, but there might be one that fits your set of uses without being to clunky on the road and too compromised on the desk. If your road needs are just an addendum to your desk needs, rather than a requirement for full capability at all times/places, I'd consider two machines.

I've head a lot of iffy things about Dell as well. I liked IBM, but haven't purchased from them since the Lenovo buyout.

[DGreenwood]

I realize that India has the potential to provide the service but it is not quite there yet. It is frustrating when the tech you are speaking to is not capable of helping you but will not give you a senior tech.

I am a little concerned about the room to move thing with the larger laptops, however, I hate working on a little screen (age). On the other hand I am very cranky about being crowded in airline, train and bus seats. Other than increasing income to afford to fly first class(not going to happen), I think I am going to have to suffer being crowded.
I am with you on needing a big screen and keyboard/mouse at home and office. I am set up there. I still use an aged 21" Sony CRT that I will hate to see die.
I am told that IBMs are the rock solid, never hiccup machines to own. The hang up is cost. Any one know about service?

[mattotoole]

Originally Posted by DGreenwood

I am told that IBMs are the rock solid, never hiccup machines to own. The hang up is cost. Any one know about service?

I'm a huge fan. You'll have to pry my crusty old T20 from my cold, dead fingers! IBM service is excellent if you get the professional level machines, like the T-Series, and buy through your business. The clue is they're the ones with XP Pro (not Home) and 3 year warranties instead of 1 year. The service is really what you're paying for with these more expensive machines. I hear it hasn't changed much since Lenovo took over, but I have no personal experience since my machine is now out of warranty.

I can vouch for the rock-solid part though, and the best keyboard there is.

[LP]

I'm running an HP Pavilion zv6000 series laptop. It's has the 15.4" brightview screen that's just great. It also has a dedicated graphics card with 128 meg onboard memory.

If your doing "enroute" work where space is limited it might make for a tight squeeze on the airline. Most of my computing is done where I have plenty of elbow room. A big concern is battery life. Processor and a large screen makes for a large draw on the battery. HP offers 8-cell and 12-cell batteries for this line. If you do a lot of battery type operation, I'd go with the large cell and maybe a backup battery.

I've got no complaints with the HP. It also has multiple USB ports, wired and wireless ethernet and DVD player.

[marshmat]

Originally Posted by DGreenwood

I don't know Leiberman? I'll google, but you seem to recommend them?

http://go-l.com
The company's been in some financial trouble lately... too much R&D spending for what they ended up selling. They are by far the most powerful and capable Windows computers around- nowhere else will you find a laptop with 64-bit 3.7GHz processor, 800MHz bus, 2 gig factory-stock RAM, a hard drive capable of 6 GB/s transfer rates, native support for 4 external monitors, a 1920x1200 screen, etc, etc. But bloody pricey, though.

I'm really impressed by the specs on some of the new Dells. I just find it really hard to trust them after the many troubles I've had with both the company and the machines.

IBM workstations used to last forever. I've known a ThinkPad to be run over by a van, and with the replacement of the monitor it lived for many more years. Got a couple old M- and E-series workstations around the office that still run fine after many, many years. Not sure what Lenovo's done with them though.

[Tim B]

Could I just voice a word of sanity into what seems to be a number-chasing exercise? IT'S A BLOODY LAPTOP

Naturally, the specification will change depending on what your'e using it for, but here are a few specs for interest...

Desktop CFD machine (one of two similar specs):
Linux / Windows Dual Boot
2.4GHz P4 overclocked to 2.5 GHz at about 32 deg C (other is Atlhon 3200+)
2 GB Ram (DDR PC 2700) Matched 1GB Pair
200GB Hdd , 1.5GB Swap space HDD , 16x DVD+_RW
10/100 Mb/s ethernet
On-board Graphics

Desktop CAD machine:
Windows Only
666MHz P3 overclocked to 1GHz at about 30 deg C
192MB Ram (PC100 SDRAM)
20GB Hdd , 1.5GB Hdd , CDROM Drive
10/100 Mb/s ethernet
ATI Rage Graphics Card

General Research Machine:
RISC-OS or Windows 95/98
Strong-ARM RISC PC (233MHz) / 486 DX 4 100MHz (Depending on environment)
40GB Hdd , 66 MB Ram (including 2MB VRam) , 10Mb/s ethernet
On-board VID-C video

Monitors are SGI 17" (re-wired from SGI Standard) for Linux/Risc and Advent 17" for Windows.

I must admit that I use the RISC-PC less now than I used to, but it is still useful for checking out small bits of theory or ideas without having to program a full GUI to do graphics.

The Desktop CAD Machine used to struggle sometimes, but I haven't noticed a problem since I improved the RAM. Generally, I haven't found many sensible problems that this machine won't handle. It is occasionally a bit slow for rendering and the like. Generally, it is nice to work on.

The Desktop CFD Machine uses the CPU from my old Laptop and I have to say, that the performance increase from laptop to desktop is quite noticable. However, It's rarely necessary to boot this machine into windows and use CAD (Rhino 3) because the CAD machine is fine for 99% of jobs. Sometimes I need to use it just to tidy up a big job at the end. Though that's down to RAM, not speed.

Now bearing in mind that Laptops tend to give lower performance than a desktop machine, my point is that you don't really need a 2.4GHz super-Laptop.

In fact, for most on-the-fly CAD jobs, a 1.xGHz chip will work just as well. Whether you use Intel or AMD is up to you. Athlons seem faster for file-transfer, and equivalent (roughly) for maths compared to an Intel P4. 64-Bit technology isn't really advisable in a laptop, because I don't think the technology is old enough yet. It seems to me to be a good way to cook the chips (Laptop P4 65 deg C (idle), Desktop P4 32 deg C(idle)). Having moved from a Laptop to a desktop machine, I now have to ask the question,

Why did I ever use a Laptop in the first place? Convenience, Laptops are easy to move.

My suggestion is to buy a cheap laptop in the 1.xGHz mobile CPU range, then back it up with a decent desktop machine. Don't be temped to go over the top though. There isn't any point. Even multiple copies of MacSurf or Rhino don't really tax a desktop machine.

There is no point in over-speccing a machine, it just costs money that you'll never use, it's far better to buy a 21" monitor over a 17" for cost of that extra 512MB ram to get to 2GB. Forget the RAM, Only when I'm running 3D Euler CFD cases do I ever exceed 1GB (dependant on case size). I have lots of RAM so I needn't worry about doing full N-S CFD cases on fine grids (I can use parallel processing to handle bigger cases that won't fit in the machine). Practically, 512MB or 768MB are good numbers to go for.

Hard Disk space though usually goes something like buy as much as you can afford. The thinking behind this is that hard-disk technology is so good now, that 200GB costs £50 ex vat (IDE interface), and it will probably last through most/all machine upgrades, to be put into the next machine in several years time.

Hope this puts matters into some sort of perspective,

Tim B.

[DGreenwood]

Thanks for all the input...exactly what I was looking for.
My original (without consultation) idea was to get around 2 Ghz and 1 Gb ram and a great video card and screen. The big storage is the right idea for a desktop but I am thinking that it does not apply to a laptop. My thought was to keep an external 100 gig drive at home to transfer to.

Thanks

[marshmat]

DGreenwood, that does sound about right for what you're probably planning. I'd say that the big-storage thing applies equally to laptops, quite a few of my colleagues often have to move or delete stuff from their 40 and 60 GB drives.

Tim- I agree with you about 95%. For what most people do, high specs on the laptop aren't really useful. In my case I use the lappy as my main machine, and I do frequently max out my 512-meg RAM. It's also quite common for me to max out the 3.06 GHz Pentium-4. This is because I have a very bad habit of doing Photoshop work on Rhino renderings for multi-page graphic layouts, with all such software (plus the requisite email, trillian, music, etc) open at once. For only doing a couple of things at a time, something with lower specs is fine. Rhino3 runs beautifully on a Pentum 3 at 700 MHz, provided you have enough RAM for the file- 512 is often ok.

[Hans Friedel]

I use a Acer TM 4502WLMi and it works great with Rhino 3 no problemo at all

Hans