Where should we discuss onboard computers?

[TerryKing]

What would be a good place in the structure of forums here to discuss onboard computer systems? It doesn't seem to fit with all the CAD stuff, and there is not a specific "Controls" section, right?? Doesn't really fit Propulsion or Materials, or Design Software. Boatbuilding>Electrical Systems is pretty much power infrastructure etc. It's more of a design question (than construction) initially.

Modern shipboard computer systems are used for multiple purposes, like Navigation, Controls, Monitoring, Weather, etc. and in some cases the same computer or similar networked computers are used for a wide variety of tasks.

Looking at commercial boat builders and systems suppliers, the PilotHouse and Controls is often a somewhat separate section from Hull and Propulsion options.

What do you think??

Maybe Pilothouse/Cockpit Controls and Computers (with some appropriate title??) makes sense.

I believe all this stuff is going to converge more and more. Look at Networked Automated Tugboats with Automatic Position Control.

I'm not willing to go to Fly-By-Wire for my 25-40 foot boat just yet, but we all know a supertanker (or an Airbus) has no physical connection between the wheel and the rudder...

Where should we navigate this subject to????

[BMcF]

Subject near and dear to my heart..would like to hear where folks think the proper place to put such discussion would be.

I returned from the Miami show recently..having helped deliver and rep a new 57' Pilot Cruiser yacht there that was 100% fly-by-wire in every respect..steering, engine controls, motion stabilizers and bow thruster. It's the 'wave of the future', to use a trite expression, but it makes sense too.

With all of the 'smaller craft' engine manufacturers like Merc, Yamaha, Yanmar, etc., going to all-electronic control, including shift and throttle, and the variety of third-party fly-by-wire engine and steering control solutions available, also for smaller craft, this is no longer a topic that is applicable only to large vessels.

[Portager]

I think we need a place to discuss marine electronics where we could discuss all the electronics needed onboard. Then we could have a thread which I would call system automation.

Other threads I would like to see is a discussion of Navigation RADAR, GPS receivers and GPS/satellite compass, flux gate compasses, shock mounting a small PC, cost effective Internet access while cruising, marine radios, sonar, video cameras, inverters and batteries.

I what about discussing marine air-conditioning and generators?

[TerryKing]

OK, at the outset, let me make clear that I'm a newbie to this site. But after digging thru the internet, usenet etc., this is the only place where serious professional and amateur or second-profession boatbuilders and sailors are figuring out real problems and building and sailing real boats. I hear this is a unmoderated site, and I hear lots of helpful and knowledgeable mates, but no obvious Captain. Did I miss someone?? Who's in charge of the layout of this site??

My apologies if I'm overstepping boundaries here. But I like to Get Stuff Done. And that seems to be a theme here.

Here's what I'M seeing, but we really need the Community to decide if and how we need to set up a section on all this "Controls/Computers/Electronics Stuff". Please give your opinions on the following:

This site has two major sections, on DESIGN and CONSTRUCTION. I think at this time that the discussions on Shipboard Electronics (Including Computer-based systems) are mainly about Design. Hopefully we'll get to a Construction part later!

Looking at several commercial boatbuilders and the way they do business and design it seems like there are three well-agreed divisions: Hull, Propulsion/Rigging, and Controls.

YOUR OPINION?? Is this right?

OK, Looking at this site and the DESIGN part, we now have this:

-----( First, we have a good general-discussion area. Sometimes subjects get moved to the other areas.)----
BOAT DESIGN - Discuss boat design concepts, projects, plans, reviews, resources, and general design
topics.

-----( We seem to have these that are largely HULL related )----
POWERBOATS - Discuss production and custom powerboats and powerboat design.
MOTORSAILERS - Discuss monohull and multihull motorsailers and motorsailer design.
SAILBOATS - Discuss monohull sailboats - production and custom - and sailboat design.
MULTIHULLS - Discuss multi-hull sailboats, catamarans, and tri-hulls and multihull design.
STABILITY- Discuss stability issues and calculations, power and sail.
SOFTWARE - Discuss marine design software: hull design, fairing, modeling, rendering, and CNC.
-- Sub-Forums: General Computing, CAD Blocks, Spreadsheet Library

-----( We have this, obviously PROPULSION )----
PROPULSION -Discuss marine engines, drives, and propulsion systems.
-- Sub-Forums: Surface Drives, Jet Drives, Outboards, Sterndrives, Inboards, Diesel Engines, Gas Engines, Hybrid, DIY Marinizing

-----( SO, I am suggesting that we add another section up at this level that is CONTROLS )-----

YOUR OPINION?? Is this right to add such a high-level section ??

This section might contain Sub-Forums along these lines: [???] Means I probably missed stuff!!!

MECHANICAL/HYDRAULIC CONTROLS - Traditional Steering, Throttle and Drive controls that are primarily mechanical

ONBOARD SYSTEMS MONITORING AND CONTROL - Monitoring (and Control where applicable) of Propulsion systems, onboard power systems, heating/lighting/cooling/water/sanitation systems, environmental and weather monitoring [???].

NAVIGATION SYSTEMS - Navigation instruments, GPS, Compass, Chart/Recorders, Radar/Collision Avoidance, Depth Sensors/Recorders, [???]

COMMUNICATIONS SYSTEMS - Ship-to-shore, Satellite, WiFi, Data networks, "Entertainment" systems, [???]

SYSTEMS INTEGRATION / SHIPBOARD COMPUTERS - The use of onboard computers to implement many of the above electronics-based systems, and to integrate them and provide a consistent human interface.

OK, What do YOU think? And, if we did add this, Who would make this change??

[BMcF]

I'm not sure the categories you proposed are entirely consistent with where the technology is headed, with 'integration' resulting in the crossing of topic boundaries ..or the combining of them. Let's use that 57' Pilot Cruiser I mentioned earlier as an example:

The steering, stabilizers and bow thruster are are controlled via one common computer. The hydraulic power for all three is provided by one common hydraulic system (with redundant pumps) that is electronically controlled by the same computer so that multiple operating modes can be achieved from a single set of tandem pumps; constant-high-pressure 'underway mode' operation for steering and stabilizers, proportional 'power' mode for operating the bow thruster...reduced pressure mode(s) for operating anchor windlass, deck crane, etc. To further 'complicate' the issue, that very same computer also the includes the autopilot functionality and interfaces to NAV sysetm and speed/heading references...and monitors operating parameters of the hydrauilc power system.

The above 'system of systems' is common on larger yachts but is now being realized on smaller vessels..even smaller than 40'. Where to 'stick' the discussion of same?

[TerryKing]

Originally Posted by BMcF

I'm not sure the categories you proposed are entirely consistent with where the technology is headed, with 'integration' resulting in the crossing of topic boundaries ..or the combining of them. ...(snip)...
The above 'system of systems' is common on larger yachts but is now being realized on smaller vessels..even smaller than 40'. Where to 'stick' the discussion of same?

BMcF, this is a definite issue, and a common one with larger systems in my experience. There is a conflict between the reaction (or default) of throwing all the subjects in the same category, or trying to find some functional categories, and then deal with how they interact/relate (integrate...) ..

On the other hand, the integration of the steering/stability/bow thruster on the yacht you mention may be just as much related to the fact that one company provided a 'system' that did all those things. Still they're all pretty much 'steering', right?? Hmmm..

The autopilot thing bring up another issue I've heard discussed: does an "autopilot" simply take a course input and hold that course, or is it "integrated" into the Nav system so that it can hit a waypoint and change course?

This IS a difficult set of stuff to sort out. Should we just lump it all into something like "Shipboard Computers and Electronics"?? or are some categories useful?? Hmmm..

[BMcF]

Originally Posted by TerryKing

On the other hand, the integration of the steering/stability/bow thruster on the yacht you mention may be just as much related to the fact that one company provided a 'system' that did all those things. Still they're all pretty much 'steering', right?? Hmmm..

The autopilot thing bring up another issue I've heard discussed: does an "autopilot" simply take a course input and hold that course, or is it "integrated" into the Nav system so that it can hit a waypoint and change course?

This IS a difficult set of stuff to sort out. Should we just lump it all into something like "Shipboard Computers and Electronics"?? or are some categories useful?? Hmmm..

Beats me how it should be 'labeled' in forum topics. I didn't say I had the answer..just the question.

The yacht I refer to is typical of what is 'up and coming'. The ability to make 'many functions' from 'an integrated system' is becoming possible on smaller and smaller vessels and the biggest benefit may be in the reduction of many disparate packages..the need for 4 different dedicated hydraaulic systems when one can do all functions...that kind of thing. Fly-by-wire steering is not new, of course, but the ability to have multiple helm 'stations' on one vessel by simply running a piece of 6-conductor 22 AWG cable to any/every place you want a helm (lever, joystick or wheel potentiometer) is a thing of beauty.

The autopilot on the 57 Cruiser I was referring to has the same functionality as most..you can run 'AUTO' mode and lock-on/input/change desired heading, or 'NAV' mode where commanded heading and ROT are received from an external nav system (Northstar in the case of the one in the example, but about every GPS these days has nav sentence outputs for following pre-programmed voyage (multiple-waypoint) inputs)). Side note: In 'NAV' mode, where the AP is happily motoring along maintaining a sequence of commanded headings received from a device programmed, correctly or maybe not so, by 'others', an audible alarm is generated, that must be accepted/acknowledged for the course change to proceed, if a change of course command is received by the AP that exceeds an operator-adjustable threshold... 45-degrees is a typical comfort level but that change-of-course alarm threshold is not allowed in any event to exceed 90-degrees.

Another key point: These integrated systems are NOT (necessarily) from one source. The various equipment manufacturers, helped along by working groups in ABYC and NMEA and others, are making all this integration and automation possible by evolving standards for interfaces and message protocols that go far beyond the old NMEA 0183/2000 stuff so that they are robust enough to deal with 'safety-critical' control aspects as well.

[safewalrus]

Seems Mr King wants to take over the forum! whilst he's in the Med at Cathage (where? thought the Romans closed that one down a few years ago!) OK so he long windedly tells us he thinks we need a section for his pets - computers and the like! Well me got one - section on electrics covers this, after all each post is different so get onto the Electrics section and get posting - try it! wouldn't try upsetting everybody by telling them it's all wrong and YOU can change that! Most of us like this the way it is! Geoff has done a brilliant job putting this together and (it's a BIG project) and keeping it running, stay awhile, post some, get to know people AND then tell them how fantastic you are (Legend in your own lunchtime no doubt), they just might listen to you then - but the 'bull in the tea shop' approach don't work casues resentment (like now) amongst other things!

I grant you there may be a reason for a seperate section on electronics in general (I believe your right) but lets do this gently, get the majority of people on your side.....if you don't like this approach go elsewhere

[BMcF]

My goodness..I thought Mr. King was about as condescending and cautious as one could possibly be about the 'maybe we could think about this' parts of his query.

So any change proposed to this forum is subject to being stomped to death out of hand, I take it? Being a newb, I guess I could be excused for not knowing better..and expected to 'go somewhere else'?

'Electronics' cannot hope to cover the range of system integration that is now in play...but as I said in my own post, I have not a clue what the topic of integrated controls might be titled or where it belongs.

[Jeff]

The idea of a controls & onboard electronics forum sounds like a great idea to me, but I'm also not entirely sure on the subforum breakdown, and welcome all other suggestions before implementing this. Many thanks!

[safewalrus]

Jeff sorry I got your name wrong - haven't crossed swords lately so kind of got the wrong one

People as I said lets go into this slowly, first try the one we have, and no I don't think it will be adequate, but there again we've got this far without the need for an 'Electronics Forum'! so let's not be hasty, give the 'governer' chance to look over all side of the argument and then he MAY set one up - just don't get hasty! People who get hasty tend to do silly things like invade others space and get bogged down! Take yer time people, do it properly and get it right!

Incidentally I'm all for it, and a section on radar, and radio, and nav equipment, and computers, and GPS, and spurlash making equipment, and, and, and.....................

[Jeff]

Plenty close - my fault for not posting enough recently.

[TerryKing]

OK, this ain't the first time I've been accused of over-organizing something If you could see my workbench right now you'd know I don't take it too seriously. And Jeff, thanks for moving this to where it belongs.. I'm still finding my way here.

Maybe this should just be simplified to "Controls" and "OnBoard Electronics" (including computers).

Or maybe we should just SpurLash the whole idea or hit it with a Left-Handed MonkeyWrench and get back to work.

[safewalrus]

nah! Terry now you've brought it out in the open, electronics is different to electrics and several sections could cover one or t'other or both! Now Jeff has the idea let him cogitate about it and I'm sure in the fullness of time he will produce something for the good of all - just let him get on with it - it is a private forum after all - HIS! So let him run it his way (he is rather good at it, and moderates fairly and gently - even tolerates me, which is brave!)

[TerryKing]

Originally Posted by safewalrus

..snip.. Now Jeff has the idea let him cogitate about it and I'm sure in the fullness of time he will produce something for the good of all - just let him get on with it - it is a private forum after all - HIS! So let him run it his way (he is rather good at it, and moderates fairly and gently - even tolerates me, which is brave!)

Definitely the right thing to do... Thanks...

And.. Ancient Mariner?? I'll never be as Salt as you, but I'm probably more Ancient