<split> composite debates (heated remarks)

[tunnels]

< mod note: split from Cloth Lap >

Originally Posted by alyeska

Layup is inside 1x 300gsm - 12mm corecell (not 10mm my mistake ) - 450 gsm 0/90 biaxial outside. Boat is a 7.5m sportsboat with lots of internal structure including carbon reinforcement around keel/ shroud structure

Why are you using Carbon in those areas???What resin are you using ,vinylester or polyester ??

Originally Posted by tunnels

Why are you using Carbon in those areas???What resin are you using ,vinylester or polyester ??

Polyester with carbon?

Tunnels you are a layman!
And I noticed that quite often already. In fact you are just repeating real experts comments on some occasions.

Originally Posted by tunnels

Ok another word for a trailer sailer !!

Hmm, quite a bold assumption yes? But hey, thats tunnels......
He said sportsboat, that can be nearly everything.

AndrewK

Right, and i already pointed out the very thin laminate (which I fear is insufficient).

Landlubber

concur on the "carbon reinforcement" issue. It rarely is a real strengthening layup when not engineered professionally.

The overlap though should be around 10 cm or more in that case. To answer the original question.

Regards
Richard

[tunnels]

Originally Posted by apex1

Polyester with carbon?

Tunnels you are a layman!
And I noticed that quite often already. In fact you are just repeating real experts comments on some occasions.



AndrewK

Right, and i already pointed out the very thin laminate (which I fear is insufficient).

Landlubber

concur on the "carbon reinforcement" issue. It rarely is a real strengthening layup when not engineered professionally.

The overlap though should be around 10 cm or more in that case. To answer the original question.

Regards
Richard

I have notices that you never really ever answer a question with any substance and logic , always skirting round the subject or doing copy and paste from other peoples posts . You seem to be fasinated with the word expert , are you an expert ? and if you think you are at what ? you remind me of a wet news paper all stale news that wont hold together .It must be coming up to full moon again in your part of the planet .
Just drop it , leave it alone , back off and get back in you hole again , you have been good since our last little tiff but now you seem to have gained some courage again and deside to poke a stick at me again !! Crawl back under you rock !!I never want to become like you never !! If doing what you do and say is being a expert then i never want to be like you ever!! It was you that started all this ,now you just couldnt leave it alone !! .

Originally Posted by tunnels

I have notices that you never really ever answer a question with any substance and logic , always skirting round the subject or doing copy and paste from other peoples posts .

You perfectly describe yourself here! 10 points tunnels............

And you make clear again, your inability to read posts, I did reply with figures.

Then:

Originally Posted by tunnels

Why are you using Carbon in those areas???What resin are you using ,vinylester or polyester ??

Polyester with carbon?

Please elaborate on that. It shows clearly you don´t know anything about the business, just nothing.

This time I will come back on that issue, be sure! Too often I was too lazy to step on your toes, thats over.

Whithin one year you mutated from a guy who was involved in the production of some 6? or so racing sailboats (laminator I assume), into a skilled boatbuilder

with 25 years of experience under my belt

having built

over hundred boats

But still you have no clue that poly and carbon is a no, no, or that Vinylester is a good choice in some cases only.
As your own threads show us, you lack of any knowledge in advanced composites technology and the materials involved. (easy to check here for everybody)
But you pop up on every other composites related thread and let the novices have the impression you would know what you are talking.
That is inacceptable, because it can cause financial losses or even worse, injuries when they follow that drivel.

In the very rare cases your comments are valid, they always have been just copies of our professionals advice. Quite often found on the same thread!

The proof is even here on this thread (amongst a dozen others), post 3 to 6:

Originally Posted by tinhorn

Since it's going over Corecell, I'd just sand a shallow groove in the foam wide enough for the overlap. Since I'm not an engineer, I'll leave it to others to recommend the amount of overlap.

Now the expert:

Originally Posted by tunnels

Put a slight recess in the foam where the join will be so the join can be filled over rather than sanding it off .

next:

Originally Posted by alyeska

Thanks for the replies, will go with the rebate in the foam, I'm guessing 30mm overlap should be enough.

and tunnels:

Originally Posted by tunnels

Make the recess 35 mm wide and the depth of one layer of glass!!

It is hard to top that in terms of primitive approach.........

...or maybe not? This nice comment from tunnels:

Your personal attacks on tunnels are ridiculous, particularly when you have less practical advice to offer the forums than he has. Welcome to my Ignore list.
came with the reduction of my rep points. (a harmless one though)

Sorry Peers for my rant, but that guy is dangerous.

Richard

Originally Posted by tunnels

Why are you using Carbon in those areas???What resin are you using ,vinylester or polyester ??

Polyester with carbon?

Tunnels this question still is not answered.

You don´t have the answer, right?

Wellllll...... we use carbon and polyester all the time - intrument panels, coffee tables, any sort of decorative crap the customer wants. We even got a request for a toilet seat, but the stresses involved were too high so we didn't do it!

[tunnels]

Originally Posted by apex1

Thanks for enlightening us,

but we were talking boatbuilding, and I would like to get tunnels reply on that statement, because he claims to know the business!

Sorry to disapoint you have sold up and moving out of the country , Going to be on the move for the next who knows how long !
Even the humble toilet seat gets a mention,and use i will agree theres to much stress to use the combination of carbon and polyester resin , change to Vinylester could be a differant story but !! And all those items listed are all part of a boat and come under the boat building list .
I will be watching this site but wont be adding my 2 cents for a while .
The joys of freedom and being care free !!!!!

Originally Posted by tunnels

Sorry to disapoint you have sold up and moving out of the country , Going to be on the move for the next who knows how long !
Even the humble toilet seat gets a mention,and use i will agree theres to much stress to use the combination of carbon and polyester resin , change to Vinylester could be a differant story but !! And all those items listed are all part of a boat and come under the boat building list .
I will be watching this site but wont be adding my 2 cents for a while .
The joys of freedom and being care free !!!!!

Oh no,

that was a pretty cheap way of exiting the trap!

You have no clue about a proper carbon setup! Thats fact tunnels!

VE is a different story? tell us tunnels, which one? The weaker weathering? or the extremely difficult mixing rates?

Come on,

How is Carbon and Polyester going together in boatbuilding? You owe us that reply!

[tunnels]

because of the nature of carbon it need a good quality resin to support and enhance its properties to get the best from it . Also with Kevlar as well . Here we had a really big drift into Kevlar in the 1980s for a while then a rapid shift away as when used with poly resin led to all kinds of problems . Later there was a drift into varying combinations of Kevlar ,Carbon and mixtures of glass in an aray of differant percentages of each matierial But all used with poly resin . Took a long time before Vinylester became widely used in conjunction with any of these fabrics .
Working in production boat building some places tried all kinds of things but never got the properties they were looking for so simply went back to basics of plain good old reliable glass .
As quoted some where in a boat magazine using polyester resin is like sticking iron bars with chewing gum .The resin breaks way before the carbon because it is not strong enough .
The super yacht i was making componants for we made 10 mtr long I beams with carbon top and bottom they had a sandwich core on edge 200mm wide X 15mm thick between the top abd bottom . Total weight of each beam was 45 kgs .
Supported on it edge at each end and 8 guys standing in the middle it only deflected 15 mm! Produced 30 as supports for the 2nd deck lever floors the other 2 decks had beams built as part of the deck structure but exactly the same principle . On the main girders in the hull along the tops of the framing were 30 layers of carbon x 300 mm wide running Full length again these were I beams . The whole boat was Vinylester every part of it .
The picture was at a early stage and every part you can see in the photo was made on the bench in my department , every part reguardless of shape or size was built to SURVEY standards that we set as a minimum !!
I set our standards much higher!!, in the 4 years of construction my department was never once were questioned about anything we made by the inspectors ,random samples were taken to the engineering department at the Auckland university and always came back exceeded exspectations .
The next company i went to manage the department making the same kind of componants but for a 120 foot super yacht . I eventually walked out of the company because of there stack ,antiquated attatude and refused to up there standards !!
I also hold certificates for the manufacture of light aircraft parts and as well as registed to manufacture life saving equipment !!

How is carbon and polyester used by the industry?

Not


tunnels you drift away. answer my question! Plain, simple straight.

How is Polyester used with carbon in boatbuilding???

No drivel and anecdotes please! Just the plain answer!

How is Polyester used with carbon in boatbuilding???

Ahh???

[tunnels]

It should not be !! with the exception of decorative panels that do not carry any stresses of strain! interior door panels on cars but remember dont use it to make toilet seats!!

Ok i have a big targot on my back so shoot me down , must be the high light of your day .
At least while you are pissing on me you are leaving others alone !!

Have you ever tried building PROGRESSIVE DISTRUCTION panels , panels or parts that hold on to the last possible strand lets go .
Something even the experts shake there heads at and stand with there mouths open with disbelief of what ordinary glass and Vinylester resin will actually stand .
Apart from cup racing boats and aircraft i have never found any use for carbon or kevlar and epoxys !!
Opps sorry made some fancy chop sticks once but they stuffed in the dish washer after a few washs !!!.

tunnels you drift away. answer my question! Plain, simple straight.

How is Polyester used with carbon in boatbuilding???

and:

Originally Posted by tunnels

Apart from cup racing boats and aircraft i have never found any use for carbon or kevlar and epoxys !!

thats exactly what I say.

You have never been part of the industry!

[tunnels]

Originally Posted by apex1

tunnels you drift away. answer my question! Plain, simple straight.

How is Polyester used with carbon in boatbuilding???

and:


thats exactly what I say.

You have never been part of the industry!

tell every one !! how should polyester and carbon be used together in boat building!!
I dont know !!

Originally Posted by tunnels

I dont know !!

What I say!

<rude comment removed>

Thanks. You made it easier for me to quote you!

[tunnels]

Originally Posted by apex1

What I say!

<rude comment removed>

Thanks. You made it easier for me to quote you!

so what is you answer to the question ? why should or could you use polyester and carbon together??
i am not affraid to say i dont know if i am asked a question and dont have the answer ! i am only human after all but i will try to find the answer on a site such as this or by asking the right people . And let it be noted i have never ever professed to saying i am a expert at anytime , ever !
It was you that feels threatened not me , I may know a lot but not everything !!l
Life is boring when you say you are a expert and think you know all the answers ,99% of what i know is from personal exsperiances of what i have done,or what i have made and problems that have come up from time to time i have sorted on my own !! i am alway willing to pass on to others and not guard the information like its a national treasure .This post has gone way off course from what was origanally asked . When i got the pesonal email i passed on the info i had and think i gave the guy the answer because i have never heard any more after the thank you !!
Quote you !! why would you want to quote me ? you are always quoting other peoples info , copy and paste ,copy and paste ! Just because you rub shoulders with people with a lot of knowledge dosent mean you are a expert .Just because i rubbed shoulders with the Korean govenor dosent make ma a expert on Korean affairs !

Have a nice day !!

Originally Posted by tunnels

you are always quoting other peoples info , copy and paste ,copy and paste ! Just because you rub shoulders with people with a lot of knowledge dosent mean you are a expert .Just because i rubbed shoulders with the Korean govenor dosent make ma a expert on Korean affairs !!

Tunnels,

I accuse YOU since months doing exactly what you describe here. Not rubbing shoulders, no one does with you, but copying valid advice, and selling it as your kowledge.