Polycore

Hi
Other core company's with round cells are around a 0.5 Mpa True

But please ....
just a note on round cells to hex cells

The round cells are by far the stronger and give you the stiffer cell .
as the hex cell flexes and distorts.... under load.

The hex cells are wider across the cell face ....it self
if you take a ruler to a hex cell you will find that it is not a true 8mm across....
the hex cell is not far off being 10mm
And most people understand that a wider 10mm is weaker !

But..
when put to the test because they are not a true round cell but a hex they give you poorer figure's as well..
Compressive modulus 50 Mpa
compressive strenth 1.0 Mpa 145 Psi
Shear strenth 0.3 Mpa and 41 Psi
shear modulus of 9 Mpa

if hex was stronger why do we not see more of this in general construction ?
What we do see in general constrution today is the use of the round cell be it round tube or round for bulk storage in buildings etc.....

this is due to round being stronger... as it offers no weakness with corners.

Please note
The Polycore PP8H is far higher than 0.5 Mpa
it is a 0.8 Mpa

Cheers Maggie

 

Proper Website Address. please?

What is the correct address for their website????.....the manufacturer of the PP honeycomb itself

I've seen several websites referenced, and several of these are no longer active? If the one you are referring to is this one
http://www.polycorecomposites.com/
...aren't you the managing director of that one?

I'm confused

 

Hi Brian.

The PP8H core was developed by us at Polycore(tm)
Aprox 9 years ago.....

We had the PP8H core manufactured to my specks...
We have been boat building people for over 30+ years and saw the many short falls in many of the composite cores over those years....

And when we had seen the old standard PP cores
I saw that they were of a poor quality.

Brian you can still get these cores but we deem them to be only good for furniture and fitting out etc... these days.

Many years ago my husband and I had seen the basic honeycomb core...
and we felt that it could be improved vastly apon....
with the right changes made to it...

The main issue was enhancing the strenght but to keep the weight low..

The only way to do this was to change the whole way this core was Produced...

I will not go into the finer details but the machinery is expensive.!

A lot of R and D went into the new PP8H core to improve its ability to with stand delamination the way it does...
and not fill with resin...

My problem has been that many people are currently being cought out thinking that they have this PP8H core and they have not!


As to your question...
We did have a fairly broard network of resellers prior to the global meltdown... and as you would know the marine industry did take a very heavy blow..
we lost many fine businesses here in Australia and also in the USA....

I did change the direction of the company for a while
But just recently I was getting quite alot of people asking me to chat on the boat forum again....

I only hope what I am explaining to everyone is helping people..


Just to let everyone know we are signing up new resellers of the PP8H core .... and the pre glassed cores.

We will soon have out lets developing in the USA, Canada, England...

And hopfully the do not have another global melt down!!!!


If you have any questions Just ....ask.

Cheers Maggie August

 

Yes maggie, you still did not answer my question.

Can the customer dictate the scantlings on the pre glassed panels?

You say the customer can choose the glass thickness, but what is the glass fibre type and orientation, CSM, biax, triax, what?

 

Hi Groper...

The pre glassed panel is a Key panel, A basic start up glassed panel of either 0.5mm or 1mm... woven roving and epoxy.

There is no real advantage to supply all of the other glasses on the market to this core....

It is designed to speed up the building of the boat
With many boat builders the 1st glass layer or lay up of a composite bare core on a vaccuum table is very labour intensive!

To speed up the construction...
We have limited the type of glass to a woven roving for this
1st layer, as it is a fine glass layer just right to set up and stiffen the core only ...
it makes the panel ready for the boat builder to add the other types of glass to it.

The whole Idea of the light lay up is to save time and money for everyone.

We thought about supplying 0.5 and 1mm with the other types of glasses but it is really some thing the indervidual boat builder will do as they nest the boat together with the cut out pre glassed panels...

it is then the boat builder choice what he will apply and what he wants as double bias or Triax etc.... for all the different jobs.
The hard part is done for him by us setting the panel up with the 1st glass stiffening layer.

Applying other glasses
The pre glassed panel is simply lightly keyed and you can then apply the next type of glass to the panel for what ever strenght or job you require.

This means a boat builder can save Thousands of dollars
by stocking this PG start up panel on his shelf...
And he then doesn't have lots of differnt stock sitting there just wasting money....

He can now pull down a sheet and then he can then choose weather he wants to make it structural or non structural.

Groper
What many boat builders miss understand is...

When they cut corners and lay up a panel with just one thick layer of glass
The resins will out gass.... this will leave very fine pin holes.

And many people have been laying up thick glass with the heavyer quad or triax with the idea of the one time curing..

They are thinking that they are cutting back on time and labour..... and un wittingly left the cores open .

In truth it is the paint and the anti foul that is sealing off the core...

Cheers Maggie

 

I disagree with your ideology of composite boatbuilding Maggie, this panel is clearly not meant to compete with ATL`s Duflex panels due to this design limitation.

On the other hand, if the panels had a structural laminate which could be stipulated by the customer, and the option of 2-3mm rebated edges to facilitate structural tape joins, then a customer could build a kit boat from your panels without having to do ANY further lamination's besides joining the panels. Assuming your panels are fair, and your ability to supply upto 12mx2.4m panels in 1 peice, no need to to do Z joins or similar on full length panels, the lack of a structural laminate choice is a real shame and something i hope you reconsider - not only for us builders, but it also may improve your bottom line and volume aswell...

 

Maggie, perhaps you should hire builders like groper as consultants.

 

I said a similar thing 7+ years ago but they expected me to deal with Robot trading or similar name and just gave up.

 

Hi,approximately how long do you think before its available in Canada?

 

No we are not ATL .......

We have a great product that will not rot like balsa does and is by far a far stronger core than balsa core...
this has been proven inderpendantly.

Our Preglassed core panel can be rebated with a router for simple Z joining.....

I really do not know where the conversation had started off with Polycore panel not being able to be routed out to form the simple z join?????

Yes our core can be joined ... But we do not rout the panel for you as every one has different needs ...


And yes our pre glassed panel is smooth
(not perfect but smooth surface)

As for design limitations

By us keeping to a very light 1st lay up any boat builder can simply add what ever glass is needed for the job on hand.... ATL can not supply a glassed core panel for $77 per square meter!

Now The boat builder has a very flexible basic low cost building panel to work up with...

Please see the impact testing on our web site...
www.polycore.com.au

( this testing was done not by us but a resin chemist and he also has credentals light air craft aircraft and crash engineering and investigations )

Test 1
Please note both the balsa core and the Polycore was glassed the same way with with epoxy resin and with 600 GSM Double Bias and glassed on both sides of a 15mm core.

If Balsa is better than PP8H polycore and every one sings its phases saying it is superior and stronger.

Why did the Balsa core fail so dramaticly with the 15kg impact test at 2.5mts ?

And the Polycore did not fail right up to 3mts?

With the same lay up we punished our core panel and went right up to to 3mts and we still had not totally distroyed the PP panel ...
unlike balsa with the Polycore panel you could still sail your boat home .

The balsa panel Just exploded on the inside of the test panel with a gaping hole that no pump would keep up with....


Test 2

It was noted on test 1...that the double bias did fracture in 2 directions
This was to be expected as it only covers 2 directions of glass...

The next lay up that was tested was 1170 GSM Triax

Balsa again exploded at 2.5mts!!!!!!

Polycore with 1170 gsm Triax
took impacts of 3mts and 3.5mts...
And again you would sail your boat home as the inside of the Polycore panel was still intact.....

It was noted that the triax did improve the panel support
in the 3 directions better than the double bias...
but that was to be expected....


Design limitation is clearly poor with the Duflex panels
and the other thing is the fresh water black rot
this is a living time bomb in a balsa cored boat....
We are getting a lot of people now repairing a balsa boat with Polycore.... to stop the fresh water rot problems.



I hope this assists people , years ago I should have made these things more clear....to everyone.

Cheers Maggie August

 

Hi Tungsten,

We are not far off signing up a company called Rev Tec
they are an a USA group with ties into Canada....and other countries....

I have to fly over there to go over the new factory...
we are working with the main indian nations both in USA and Canada....

This company Rev Tec also is involved with remote power plants with lithium iron batteries,

They produce electric cars, remote and emergncy housing and massive power plants on solar or wind up to 100kw...

We at Polycore see this company as a good partnership
they are currently testing Polycore for their new electric buggy.... this is the Manx dune buggy.

So far the PP8H core has out performed all the honeycomb cores currently available on the market....!!!

We also are very happy to also announce once we have
Rev Tec on board we will have the most advanced battery's
and electric power plants to offer the marine industry..!

I do have more info on new bullet proof resins but I will have to wait untill I see it for my self....


Cheers Maggie August

 

It's not the material that's the problem maggie, it's the boat building methodology you have to subscribe to when using your panels...

By forming a structure with pre glassed panels which require further structural laminates after the fact, means one is basically subscribing to " old school" wet laminating methods which are wasteful, heavier, more time consuming, more voc emissions and requires more rework afterwards in fairing. You basically build like a glass over plywood boat...

I congratulate you that you can supply full length panels for a 40' boat- this makes the z joins redundant. Only the longitudinal joins have to be taped, and these are generally not able to be z joined anyway. So you have 1 up on ATL there. But without a structural laminate choice, well all this advantage is now gone.

So your panels have a smooth finish, great, but then one has to apply a laminate over it and all the weave needs to be filled/faired again, the overlaps in the glass cloth will need to be faired out, and basically the smooth finish doesn't matter anymore.

In addition, you panels are now going to be whatever stock laminate weight you apply - heavier- than what the structure needs to be. In these modern times, where meltdowns happen, fuel edficient boats are the only ones which will still be in business. Your panels won't be a part of this future if they carry unnecessary weight.

I'm trying to help you maggie, but one can only lead a horse to water...

Btw, ATL will make duflex panels using balsa core or foam core or honeycomb core, whatever the customer specifies, not just balsa...

Is there a fundamental reason why you cannot put a customer speced laminate onto the panels rather than a generic woven roving?

 

Hi ... yes I agree

It is a trade off .....

Currently we can supply a very light weight core with 0.5mm woven glass
This makes a finished panel of 15mm

All up weight per square meter is 2.7kgs
this is made up of 1.2kg core
and 1.5 glass and resin weight ....

Yes I agree with you that many people can not pull the exess resin out of their next layer of glassing...

But I have seen many people do fantastic work as well....

Groper ....
I have been away for awhile in other fields ....
but I do understand your suggestions...are good.

But what you may not know is if we do a one time cure in our massive ovens
with a 600 gsm or 1170 gsm triax etc...you are not properly sealing off the resin with the out gassing....issues.

If we do what Atl is doing we are not really doing the right thing for people who just don't know...better.

A compromise where do you go?

I will think about it as it is food for thought......

P.S
we also supply lots of other core and panels
Cheers Maggie

 

I read that as using a core of 2.7kgs per meter which I then need to add a laminate to. Over a small catamaran build of 200sqm, this is 300kgs of extra weight which I can avoid by using other methods. A big problem for your sales team...

There's an easy answer to that, develop a process where you do not have the out gassing issues, ie remove the gas, air, and do it under vacuum. The added cost would be gladly accepted given the potential savings for the customer.

Failing that, there's much less work in applying a squeegee coat of resin/filler to seal the layup than there is in applying the entire structural laminate and accociated fairing after that.

See, I am a potential customer for your panels maggie, but I look at it as a builder and decide its not going to help me the way it is.

Innovation will bring the biggest rewards.

 

I understand where you are coming from Groper. I also was hoping to have a 'finished surface' on the exterior of a vessel built with these panels. Otherwise one will always be burdened with having to fair the this exterior surface prior to final gel coating or painting

I brought this subject up before:

....and I seem to recall that they were suppling pre-glassed panels for the construction of their catamaran kit. They obtained their honeycomb panels from Maggie I believe.

I believe there is a way to pull up 'archived websites', but I do not know how at this time. It might prove interesting to view their kit building info in more detail. If I google Solitary Island 12M cat all I get is
http://www.multihull.com.au/site/www/pdf/pdfs/pacific_40_kit.pdf

oops, wait a minute here is another PDF I had saved on my computer....attached PDF
Note this quote from that document:
"The Polycore panels, using quality epoxy/glass are pre-glassed in the factory using vacuum presses producing a very good, consistent volume fraction resulting in the ultimate lightweight panel"

This is the 'panel' I wanted to use to save on the 'after glassing fairing work,....to get a 'molded finish' on the exterior.