The Dreaded cockpit sole Dilema!!!

[grady]

While I'm getting ready for the big feast tomorrow, I thought I would explore the vast knowledge of the members of this forum, and talk about teak decking.
My local supplier has a solid teak deak product with a relief ( for lack of a better word ) built into one side to fill with caulking or epoxy or somthing.

Here's what I thought I might Do.

I would start by making a templete out of heavy const paper. Transfer the marks onto 1/2" ply then lay out my teak pattern onto the ply. When I was happy with the fit and pattern I would then epoxy it to the ply. After that I would grind down my non-skid, clean, prep, clean and clean again. then epoxy my teak panels into place. ( average panel size is 36"x 96" ) complete panel thickness would be about 5/4". Is that too thick? too much weight?
there will be no screws through the glass sole. But what product do I use to grout the seams with? Its a fairly small deck, so I'm not daunted with large patterns or long planking, but some guys use margin boards on all sides of a panel as I would like to do but am uncertain if deck would look too busy.
Please respond with any thoughts

Thank You.

Happy Turkey Day

[PAR]

If putting teak over plywood, the only recommendation I offer is as follows: embalm the plywood with epoxy well, especially the end grain, cutouts and screw holes, then sheath it with 6 - 8 ounce cloth, set in epoxy, let this cure. Pre-layout your planking strips, mark them for location, maximizing the grain and color patterns, then bed them in 3M 4200, using brads in the seams, weights or temporary screws/nails. The pre-milled stock, your supplier has is handy to use and saves the trouble of cutting a caulking seam. These seams get filled with polysulfide like 3M 101 or similar. It saves some trouble if the seams are taped off, before the caulk goes in. Press in the caulk with a knife, hard, making sure it fills the seam without bubbles. When this cures, pull the tape and wait a few weeks. They'll be reasonably level after the tape is pulled, but it has to fully cure before you can sand them flat, which can take a month or more depending of manufacture and ambient conditions. Sand the whole of the deck smooth, with the grain on the last few passes.

I have no idea what boat this is going in or how it's equipped, so speculation about excess weight would be a guess.

[grady]

I have seen guys epoxy directly onto the original deck, and use screws and fender washers to temp hold everything down and in place. But then have to go back and fill each screw hole with epoxy. then go back and fill the seams with an epoxy and graphite mix. Just looking for the best method.

thanks

[PAR]

Screwing new ply down to the existing deck relies on the current deck being sound. Bonding to a rotten deck only hides the problems and can't be considered a good repair, unless the goal is to get a few more years of service from a tired old hull. The best course is to remove the bad stuff and replace it with good, possibly using better methods and materials then the original.

There are two types of teak deck. One is a veneer and is decorative, plus the natural anti skid nature of teak. It usually consists of relatively thin strips of teak glued, screwed or other wise bonded into place over a substantial substrate. The other is a laid teak deck, which provides stiffness as well as the aesthetic and anti skid properties necessary in decking.

Any time you use epoxy, you have to fill holes for temporary fasteners, ditto the seams, though graphite isn't necessary. Graphite offers some UV protection, but also makes a slippery surface, which is just the opposite of what you need in a deck.

Again, the best method is to remove the rotten decking and replace it.

[bntii]

Why the ply??

If I am hearing you correctly the teak decking sits on a ply layer. I can say with certainty that the ply will draw in water from the edges and delaminate, even if marine grade and saturated with epoxy (will be ok if sheathed in glass as PAR mentioned).

This is a glass boat with cored construction which is sound?
Teak overlay added as cosmetic & non-skid not a structural fix?

[grady]

This deck is sound! No issues except for an imperfect non-skid ( nicks, worn spots etc. The reason I thought I would use a ply subtrate is to facilitate an all epoxy install with no intrusion to the existing deck. I thought if I tried to apply the teak directly to the deck with out some sort of fasteners either temp or perm it would take forever to complete. looking for a clean, new deck with all good properties of teak without compromising the existing deck.

Grady

[bntii]

Skip the ply.

Cut/layout at home on your paper templates.

Use frames- they look good and keep the water from running up the end grain and keeping these areas wetter than the rest.

Bond down- use screws in the joints with washers- pull and fill holes before paying deck.

or

Use weights- Sounds crazy but if the frame is screwed & bunged in the traditional manner, the field can be lain in bedding and held in place with sand.

Just lay the deck & cover with a tarp- bury the tarp in a few inches of builders sand. Let it cure than pull the tarp and pay the seams. Dry weather please.

Deck cores are compromised due to lack of maintenance on systems where the old paying has gone brittle and lost its bond to the decking. Capillary tension will pull the water down the fasteners past the too shallow bungs and past the paying into the deck core.

Modern paying stands up far longer and allows bonding of deck to skip the screw/bung approach.

Don't use epoxy

West allows that a teak overlay of 1/4" maximum may be lain with epoxy.

I wouldn't use it for any deck- you need a elastic bedding/ paying compound

[PAR]

Some divergent advise is being submitted here (I think).

A veneer deck can't have bungs, there's just not enough wood to bury the fasteners into and still have a reasonable bung depth. A laid deck is a much thicker, usually an element of the deck structure, which is unnecessary additional weight and cost, over a sound deck, to which I think we all agree.

A teak veneer can be placed in epoxy, but heed the warnings I and others suggest about laminate thickness. I recommend 5/16, but if the West System brothers say 1/4" who's to bitch with their research and testing, over a 1/16".

The longest lasting teak decks, go over a very sound substrate and have as little penetration into that deck, as is necessary to hold it down, while whatever goo is used to secure it, cures.

You don't need an additional layer of plywood over a sound deck, you can prep and bond to that deck.

The pre milled stuff Grady's dealer has, is probably 3/4" or thicker, which is 3 times the thickness necessary for a veneer teak covering.

Bntii, the current deck is 'glass. His original thoughts are to place the teak on plywood, then place bond assembly on the current deck. The boat is a 1986 Grady 24' twin I/O (if memory serves me) and his deck is good, just molded non-skid, which admittedly (my opinion) isn't the best looking stuff and he wants a teak overlay.

The questions arise: Should he use the milled stuff from his supplier? I think he could, but may wish to mill it down to thinner stock, for use as a veneer., How to attach it? He thought of gluing it down to plywood, then bonding this to the boat. I don't like this idea much (nor do you Bntii, I'm guessing) I'd rather see it (the teak) bonded directly (less materials/weight, fewer penetrations into current decking, etc.) and which adhesives and bedding to use? I think we all can agree a two part polysulfide will do the best job in the seams, with a good single part a close runner up and more user friendly. I have no problem with a thin teak veneer getting epoxied down, but would prefer a polyester adhesive/sealant like 3M 4200, so it can be removed without damaging the original 'glass deck underneath and help stem any leaks that may work past seams and fasteners.

[grady]

Do you have a specific product in mind? ( for the two part poly-sulfides ) I have seen about as many ways to do this as there are people doing it.

Yes PAR you are pretty much getting my intentions.

My goals are; 1, to have minimal amount of new holes in my old deck. 2, to have a nice teak sole that will give many years of trouble free pleasure (and I realize that this deck will need lots of tlc ). And not to sign the death cert of my existing deck.

When I first conceived this project, I was thinking it would be a nice up-grade that I could do my self. And at the same learn something about wood to fiberglass bonding.

thanks for your imput everyone

Grady

[PAR]

Yep, it's a great upgrade and is the best looking, best anti skid material available, in my opinion.

Log onto www.WestSystem.com and check out their "how to" section. I haven't been there in a few years, but a veneer deck was one of the projects they covered and you'll learn a lot about the process. You can down load or have mailed, free information and user guides about the different procedures necessary for the job.

[bntii]

Vocabulary??

Originally Posted by PAR

Some divergent advise is being submitted here (I think).

A veneer deck can't have bungs, there's just not enough wood to bury the fasteners into and still have a reasonable bung depth. A laid deck is a much thicker, usually an element of the deck structure, which is unnecessary additional weight and cost, over a sound deck, to which I think we all agree.

I don't see any lain teak decks on cored glass structures where the lain teak exceeds 1/2"

On this substrate to my mind teak decks are all 'veneer', just a cosmetic overlay.

Most of these veneer installations are screwed and bunged down. They fail and cause a great deal of problems for the cored structure they are attached to.

"Some divergent advise is being submitted here (I think)."

***We are of course in nearly complete agreement. What we both see in our work are scores of production vessels whose teak decks (skinny veneer overlay), are screwed down and condem the vessels to exspensive repairs.***

Skip the plywood underlay, Don't use epoxy and bond the deck overlay down.

[grady]

Ok the ply is completely out of the picture, now I need to figure out my methods and bonding systems.

There is a ton of info out there on this subject, and all of you have been very helpful.


Thanks


Grady