Composite (glass/foam/glass) For Beginners?

[AndrewK]

War Whoop; my own boat is corecell hulls and PVC the rest, most of the laminates are infused. But I still do not recommend CatBuilder go down this path. Reason being is that he only has three years to build on his own to a standard of finish required for charter for $300K.
Do you think he can achieve this in foam and vacuum consolidation?

CatBuilder; attached is a spreadsheet I use to calculate resin required for infusion jobs, you can play with it to get the idea of costs and weight comparisons of panels.

[War Whoop]

Originally Posted by AndrewK

War Whoop; my own boat is corecell hulls and PVC the rest, most of the laminates are infused. But I still do not recommend CatBuilder go down this path. Reason being is that he only has three years to build on his own to a standard of finish required for charter for $300K.
Do you think he can achieve this in foam and vacuum consolidation?

CatBuilder; attached is a spreadsheet I use to calculate resin required for infusion jobs, you can play with it to get the idea of costs and weight comparisons of panels.

I have my own Infusion system that I have worked on since 1990 and Myself I would just go with the bagged laminate but I have family to draw from with bagging experience in the So Florida heat, we also know how to fair among other things the nicest tooling in the area.
I do not know Catbuilders background that is the Grey area here.

Best Regards

[CatBuilder]

Originally Posted by War Whoop

I do not know Catbuilders background that is the Grey area here.

Check out what I named this thread for an idea of my skill level.

[War Whoop]

Originally Posted by CatBuilder

Check out what I named this thread for an idea of my skill level.

Dude I was not trying to slam you.

[CatBuilder]

Originally Posted by War Whoop

Dude I was not trying to slam you.

Uh... see the smiley in my post? I posted that in good spirits.

I'm not in a competition here, so I'm definitely not feeling slammed.

I'm letting everyone know I have no experience at all building a foam/glass hull. I'm the least experienced guy on the board. That's why I'm asking all these questions.

So yes, I'm a beginner and this is my very first foam/glass boat.

What I was saying (and the smiley shows I was joking around) was that you can easily see my skill level by looking at the title of the thread. I'm a beginner.

[War Whoop]

Originally Posted by CatBuilder

Uh... see the smiley in my post? I posted that in good spirits.

I'm not in a competition here, so I'm definitely not feeling slammed.

I'm letting everyone know I have no experience at all building a foam/glass hull. I'm the least experienced guy on the board. That's why I'm asking all these questions.

So yes, I'm a beginner and this is my very first foam/glass boat.

What I was saying (and the smiley shows I was joking around) was that you can easily see my skill level by looking at the title of the thread. I'm a beginner.

I saw the smiley ,but I still had to make my position known, this is your thread.

[AndrewK]

CatBuilder; OK so it is going to be a foam boat, now I will give my reasons why you should consider transverse planking in a half hull female mould.

1. less material for mold stations and only half the amount of battens required.

2. short planks easily managed on your own.

3. easier to glass in a concave as each batch of resin can be quickly poured on to the job as it can not drain away and then spread around with a squeegee, so much less mess and wastage for a single laminator.

4. much less glue line as the first plank at approx 60% from the bow can be 1.2m wide, then reducing as you go out to the ends, only last few would be 200mm wide.

5. no need for bead & cove or splines, so cheaper and less wastage.

6. can plank entire half first before glassing, but I recommend in three stages. First plank from the sheer line down to the tight turn in the bilge then glass this while you can reach from either end. Second use longitudinal strips only half length of the hull that are preglassed with UD along the length or bead & cove for the bilge area, this will be approx 500 - 600mm at its widest then glass this area. Finally plank the deck, if only a gentle rocker planks will be very large, then glass this section.

7. install all of your bulkheads, also beneficial to install shelving and any landings for bunks, soles etc at this stage to further lock in the shape.

8. remove half hull from mould and store, it will be surprisingly very stiff already at this stage.

9. repeat same procedure for second half and remove from mould.

10. reverse mould stations and produce 3rd half hull.

11. lower first half on to the 3rd, glue and tape the centerlines and bulkheads, install shelves and landings. Fair the deckhead.

12. do the external top half laminate, this is where infusion is great even more so for a single operator but not necessary.
13. release from mould turn over and repeat for the second half of external laminate.

14. produce last half hull and repeat steps 11 - 13.

15. fair below waterline with the hulls on their sides.

So simple isn't it!

[CatBuilder]

Milan,

Is there more information somewhere about the pictures you attached to this post from the first page of the thread?

I am interested in understanding this build method.

I see standard plywood, bulkheads, then foam (junk foam?) in the bilge area to create the radius of the bilge.

Is there a website anywhere that takes you step by step through this process?

It is interesting.

Originally Posted by Milan

Yes, very good advice, it is easiest and cheapest. And you will need a tender later anyway, so you are not loosing any time.

I think main problems that you had were difficulties with a vacuum process and handling big, vobley panels?

Maybe one of the conventional building techniques, (ply and/or strip planking) would work better for you? A bit more time consuming, but a lot less to go wrong, more control of the shape and no big panels to handle.

Have a look at this for an example – Gerard Dansone’s, (Outremer), 13 meter design for amateurs in ply. Very simple building process and still nice, rounded shapes. Hull cross-section has a simple dory form with a solid foam rounded bottom.

http://www.m-alyseoci.fr/
http://translate.google.com/translat..._materiaux.htm

For strip planking, catmando2 described how it can be done pritty quickly.

Speed Strip tongue-and-groove strip planking

[Milan]

Originally Posted by CatBuilder

Milan,

Is there more information somewhere about the pictures you attached to this post from the first page of the thread? …

Yes, two links from that post are about that boat, “Boheme 43”, designed by the late Gerard Danson, Otremer’s designer and owner.

[Lurvio]

Well, this has been a very informative thread.

One thing I am a bit suprised is no mention of FRAM. I am a wood guy, but Frams building blog has been something I've folloved with great interest. It should be a great reference point when desiding what techniques to use on your build.

Fram's building blog

Lurvio

(disclaimer: My knowledge is what I've read so far, so I can't offer much advice otherwise )

[Richard Woods]

you might also find this link useful

http://zambonidriver.com/category/bo...lding-updates/

Jeff is building one of my 34ft catamarans. His first boatbuilding project

Also see the Latest New page of my website

Jeff made a video showing him turning his hull over singlehanded

I think you have learnt a lot, and have worked out who is telling you the best information.

In brief, there should be no problem sticking glass to foam. All the problems come when sticking foam to glass.

Race boats save weight using infusion, but they don't have any interior. It will be very easy to "waste" weight with carpets, flat screen TV, microwave oven, air con etc. All stuff that charterers now want. I wouldn't go for infusion myself, a "bridge too far" maybe, given your knowledge.

Why not make a foam sandwich tool box or flat panel dinghy. You will learn all you need at minimal cost. Except that you shouldn't underestimate the physical work involved. I don't like to laminate more than about 20ft x 5ft, 100sqft, 10sqm in one go.

That is one reason why building boats is so different from making test samples in a lab or schoolroom, or even making a swimming pool or car body.

As always, to save time and money "leave it out". It is also always the lightest solution.

I have tried to read all your posts on various fora but one thing I haven't seen is any discussion on scaling back on the size of your boat.

Have you considered a smaller boat? I know you are doing this project to make money, so wondered if you'd be better off with a smaller boat and fewer charterers on board?? Lower initial cost, shorter build time, so more time left in your life to recoup the money.

I fly to Virginia on Thursday to begin sailing a Transit 38 (which cost way under your budget to build) south down the ICW to Fl and the Bahamas.

See here

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP9kgfi3q2A

You'd be welcome to visit us on board any time before mid Dec

Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

[TeddyDiver]

Originally Posted by Richard Woods

Have you considered a smaller boat? I know you are doing this project to make money, so wondered if you'd be better off with a smaller boat and fewer charterers on board?? Lower initial cost, shorter build time, so more time left in your life to recoup the money.

That would be a huge mistake IMHO. I had similar dreams once and made the math to see where the lines cross.. (costs vs income) and there's no way around it, the bigger the better.

[Fram]

Originally Posted by Richard Woods

...........Race boats save weight using infusion, but they don't have any interior. It will be very easy to "waste" weight with carpets, flat screen TV, microwave oven, air con etc. All stuff that charterers now want. I wouldn't go for infusion myself, a "bridge too far" maybe, given your knowledge...........
Richard Woods of Woods Designs

www.sailingcatamarans.com

I didn't follow this thread and was redirected to this forum by the link to my website.

Regarding the above quote maybe it is interesting to know that I choose to build with infusion because I was a total beginner with zero composite experience who wanted to build a composite boat. I didn't dare to build a 39' trimaran with foam and hand-lay-up laminate without any knowledge and hands-on experience. So I found the infusion technique to be a system and not depending on craftsmanship, only some accuracy.

Just another approach. I still praise the day I made that decision.

Henny van Oortmarssen

[Fram]

I forgot to add. As a beginner, make contact with knowledgeable people, guys who really knows what they are talking about and be sure that they put you on the right track right from the beginning (thanks Arjan and Herman)