Building Fiberglass Boats

[CaptBill]

Wcnfl,
Yes correct.But I gave you the condensed version of what I have been seeing in my head so you could visualize it too. Sounds like you get the idea so let me fill in some gaps.

My idea of a dream boat has these qualities (as a DIY boat)
Must save heaps of money over other ways.
Must be a brick by brick type layup for ease.
Must result in a SUPERIOR product.
Must be a one man operation if necessary.
Must be desirable to serious boaters yet easy to afford to build.(and attach a profit to if I ever want to sell her)

Save money
-No molds/plugs/forms. Jackstands will make do.No need for huge equipment/facilities. Even a small cnc would work. Just working with smaller "bricks". Fully rough out the hull with just some cheap foam and biaxial tape. Plus no chance of wasting money with costly errors that can occur with traditional methods. Like messing up a batch of resin for instance. You just mix in small batches during the bricking phase, mixing half quart at a time. Plus when you set up your 3d cutfile you process it with software that positions your cuts leaving least amount of waste.

Brick by brick
This will simplify things. Easier to manage in all respects. You could build it in sections and store them if space is a concern. When the rest of the panels a done you piece them together and fuse them with layers of glass, AT THE MARINA! Also you can build out whole sections inner wall and outer in a way that suits you. Experiment with no big gamble. Didnt work? Just redo that section.You lost $30.

Superior
I dont want to build a boat unless I feel like its somehow better than any other method. I would rather strip an old boat out and redo her rather than attempt to start from scratch and get in over my head. The honeycomb idea I think, is the hot ticket here.You got light, you got strong, you got unsinkable (make honecomb thick enough, fillet all the individual "combs" and she will break in half and still float).

Desirable to serious boaters
It must be a design lacking none of the qualities of a good, professionally engineered boat with the added qualities even pros will look at and go "that is cool, I want one built like that".

Gotta run!

Originally Posted by wcnfl

Capt Bill,
Neat stuff...I like it!

So if I follow you design 3D Model, cut it out, assemble foam, cover with glass, use this as plug to build hull mold...

Will gel coats melt the foam? or do you lay thin layers of fiberglass thin apply wax, pva, gel, fiberglass for mold?

No, Gel coats do not melt the foam.












They melt your dream!

[SamSam]

And as far as I can tell, you still end up with a very rough object that will take a good amount of hand labor to fair and smooth. Not to mention a boat with how many secondary sort of bonds. And then maybe you have to finish the inside somewhat. And then some structure.

An unproven design with an experimental sort of construction. It could end up being more than a $30 mistake.

But actually, I'm not quite sure of the process CaptBill is describing. At one point it seemed akin to how Carolina Skiffs are built, but just vaguely.

[CaptBill]

Please understand were just dreaming out loud and expect someone to pinch us and wake us up at any moment. Feel free please. PAR you are obviously a pro and you are right in what you say I'm sure. But remember, were not talking about mass scale here. People who buy dream boats probably dont want a mass produced boat anyway. A good mix of old fasioned hand laid hull with high tech cutting for accuracy sounds like the way to go anyway. Were talking how to make a demo quick and cheap (relatively) that is an awsome boat in its own right so if the biz dont work out at least you got her out of the deal. Gotta build something unique, then price it out for mass scale if you must. Ps. As a total coincidence I was just pricing a jam up 5th axis that can fair the exterior as a matter of fact. But I would want deposit $$ in hand from customers in line before we talk 5th axis. So for a concept boat old fashion sanding/fairing will suffice.
......But please try again cause I still cant see why its not a desirable method

Originally Posted by CaptBill

r
......But please try again cause I still cant see why its not a desirable method

What?

which method?

There is no cheap way for a factory to get a boat into production.
The rather idiotic thought of making a mould to become a boat in case production fails. Well, idiotic.

Pro´s have data, connections, proven schemes, mould making skills, perfect designs, they do´nt need a belt and suspenders.

At present, I am proud to say that I have produced 12.680 tonnes of boats and Yachts over the last 34 years.

Never I had such a idiotic idea, using a mould or plug as a boat.

If you tell me the one who sold you a former mould as a boat, I´ll help you to get your money back. Or him into trouble.

The cheapest proven way to get a "sellable" boat on the water is probably a wood epoxy hull and super. there is nearly no other way of getting a good product done by "one armed monkeys".
But even then, you have to take the risk of a imperfect design.

Regards
Richard

[CaptBill]

SamSam wrote:
And as far as I can tell, you still end up with a very rough object that will take a good amount of hand labor to fair and smooth. Not to mention a boat with how many secondary sort of bonds. And then maybe you have to finish the inside somewhat. And then some structure.

I have no real hands on experience other than being around boats for a while and correct me if I'm wrong but with enough overlap and build up of cloth around tabs qualifies as a primary bond, one piece. Correct me if I wrong now because I envision a one piece solidly glassed hull. If I cant I guess Ill just redo this old Choy Lee Robb 35 I got instead.

The inside would be done just like the outside you would just alternate. Ist row of exterior, then 1st row interior, 2nd row exterior, 2nd row int etc. till you get to the top. Then you run the final layers of glass in and out by vacuume bagging for instance. This way fairing can be, at the least, greatly minimized too.
And about structure. The structure could simply be pt pine dropped in and glassed over. Actually you would probably build the keelson FIRST and build around it as your foundation and "worktable". Bulkheads probably go in when you are ready to lay in the deck and cabin structure.

I would definitely spend most of my effort to make sure it was over engineered. Make it stronger than necessary. Strength is best improved by thickening the honeycomb in key areas,not just adding layer after layer of glass. Take that part to an engineer.

Actually I meant if you mess up a mix you only loose out and need to redo that batch. Which coincidentally $30 might be high. Run the math it will probably be $20. (1/2 quart epoxy @ $5-10, 30' glass tape maybe $10)

The carolina Skiff if a good example but the honecombing method only requires foam during the lay up. Do it right and you can remove the foam if you want, technically

[CaptBill]

"Pro´s have data, connections, proven schemes"
Therein lies the real problem.

Can't imagine how they walk around without belts or suspenders though. Gotta hand it to 'em.Thats a cool trick, off topic, but a cool trick.

[CaptBill]

"Pro´s have data, connections, proven schemes, mould making skills, perfect designs, they do´nt need a belt and suspenders."

and then

....no other way of getting a good product done by "one armed monkeys".
But even then, you have to take the risk of a imperfect design.

Boy shure does sound like a scheme alright.... a scheme to steal belts from us "one armed monkeys".

Originally Posted by CaptBill

"Pro´s have data, connections, proven schemes"
Therein lies the real problem.
Can't imagine how they walk around without belts or suspenders though. Gotta hand it to 'em.Thats a cool trick, off topic, but a cool trick.

Be cool,

we are cool, we dont need tricks. Appropriate craftsmanship does a decent and satisfying business....

And you should delete your former #38 post. It shows a "bit a lack" of knowledge.

[souljour2000]

Originally Posted by CaptBill

Wcnfl,
Yes correct.But I gave you the condensed version of what I have been seeing in my head so you could visualize it too. Sounds like you get the idea so let me fill in some gaps.

My idea of a dream boat has these qualities (as a DIY boat)
Must save heaps of money over other ways.
Must be a brick by brick type layup for ease.
Must result in a SUPERIOR product.
Must be a one man operation if necessary.
Must be desirable to serious boaters yet easy to afford to build.(and attach a profit to if I ever want to sell her)

Save money
-No molds/plugs/forms. Jackstands will make do.No need for huge equipment/facilities. Even a small cnc would work. Just working with smaller "bricks". Fully rough out the hull with just some cheap foam and biaxial tape. Plus no chance of wasting money with costly errors that can occur with traditional methods. Like messing up a batch of resin for instance. You just mix in small batches during the bricking phase, mixing half quart at a time. Plus when you set up your 3d cutfile you process it with software that positions your cuts leaving least amount of waste.

Brick by brick
This will simplify things. Easier to manage in all respects. You could build it in sections and store them if space is a concern. When the rest of the panels a done you piece them together and fuse them with layers of glass, AT THE MARINA! Also you can build out whole sections inner wall and outer in a way that suits you. Experiment with no big gamble. Didnt work? Just redo that section.You lost $30.

Superior
I dont want to build a boat unless I feel like its somehow better than any other method. I would rather strip an old boat out and redo her rather than attempt to start from scratch and get in over my head. The honeycomb idea I think, is the hot ticket here.You got light, you got strong, you got unsinkable (make honecomb thick enough, fillet all the individual "combs" and she will break in half and still float).

Desirable to serious boaters
It must be a design lacking none of the qualities of a good, professionally engineered boat with the added qualities even pros will look at and go "that is cool, I want one built like that".

Gotta run!

I don't know why..... but this post just makes me feel "glad" that our Founding fathers were mostly "masons" and not shipwrights...know what I mean? No offense to the New Englanders in the forum...

[wcnfl]

Thanks for the great idea's....very interesting

Remember the goals....I can't be too experamental on building...it could cost alot of time and money...need a PROVEN process. (maybe proven outside of boat building)

Right now in my mind Fiberglass and Cold Mold are two proven processes. I agree the foam has some possiblities...the Rhino stuff looks interesting but can I afford the cost of the CNC mill....

The main question is how to prove my design...cold mold (plywood/fiberglass) a boat then test?

or build a plug from foam, wood, or whatever material will hold the form? and then test?

Here what I think I'm hearing plywood can only bend so much so you are limited with your shape.

If you CAD design, CNC plug, the shape can almost be anything.

In my experience the boat companies pays for design and engineering...then CNC the plug...by this time they have spent $50-$100 thousand if not more on bigger boats and weather or not its proven the hull is going into production and they are going to sell it...good bad or in different.

Here lyes the problem if you invest a huge some of money in a small boat 15'-18' you have to expense that out and either you sell thousands of boats or a few very expensive little boats.

The production boat companies I know make little or no money on small boats. With the current state of the economy people want and are going to want smaller, less expensive, more economical boats.

So with that said... the proven ways of building boats are to costly for small boats...so I'm tring to find another method or modify current methods.

I like Capt Bill's idea's I just can't fill in all the gaps in my mind...

I respect the apex1, PAR, SamSam for your experience...

Maybe there isn't a better way maybe boats are supose to cost an arm and a leg...

Thank you all for your input...

[CaptBill]

Definitely want to prove the concept. Post over in the CNC Forum. I bet you will find someone willing to do a few cuts for cheap. Probably find someone to sub out the cutting to altogether. Either way if you are serious, all must agree, cnc should be involved any way you go. So that means you need a 3d model regardless. Why not give it a shot.

A radiused surface is much stronger than "chined". All the energy is even as opposed to concentrating in the sharp bends.