Is Balsa really that bad ??

Originally Posted by mark775

"I know I wouldnt leave it to boatbuilders alone." Okay, Mr. "Unsafe at Any Speed", We could open a can of worms here!

Please do´nt ! We already have much more than enough idiotic overregulations in the market.

Regards
Richard

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by apex1

Please do´nt ! We already have much more than enough idiotic overregulations in the market.

Regards
Richard

Yeah - professional boatbuilders and designers will aways provide a reliable, solid product free of defects

http://www.beneteau235.com/f235_rudder.htm

Surely not. What a statement. But new regulations, rules and penalties have proven to fail either. But thats on tax payers expense, so the wealthy do´nt mind!
Regards
Rcihard

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by apex1

Please do´nt ! We already have much more than enough idiotic overregulations in the market.

Name your two most onerous (relating to boats)

[tunnels]

When i started in the glassing industry in 1972 we used Balsa all the time and never ever had a problem . Working in a Boat building company making one complete boat a week and laying lots of balsa throughout the boat . We never had wet balsa prblems ever , we never got osmosis, we never had the things that are associated with bad workmanship . Faded gel coat was never and issue gel coats were always brushed as no one knew anything about spraying or pressure pots . It seems as we have aged ,the NEW materials have changed and the workmanship and workers have never learned as time has gone by .
I have just in the past month returned from Korea and the company was having every problem in the book with a new Gelcoat they had desided to start using on a new boat . Pointing the finger at the product , the poor rep was saying no it a users fault . I totally agreeded with him and asked him to go that i would sort the probems . Every item that had beem made was take out of the moulds and everything bare to start again . After one day and a wet film thickness gauge they leaned how to spray to the recomended minimum thickness and when the items were finished NO PROBLEMS !! Also to mix gel with the resin on small hatchs and the like to give it colour and not having to paint the insdie as it was already white all the way through to the gel coat surface .
Balsa is the same, people trying to take short cuts and use materials that are not recomended . Sticking balsa down in wet glass is ok but has to be done properly and there are trick associated that no one has taken any notice to learn !!.
Me, i always use a slurry mix formulated over a period of time by the guys i worked with ,We never have loose blocks , we never have air pockets , we never have to fill any where ,we have never had any probelms at all!!!! Articals in book are usually written by people that have never come from the factory floor and spent hours and hours working in a glass shop , they will have learned every bad method there is and never thought and learned from theres or others mistakes .
For the past 10 years i have spent my life travelling to differant countries to simply show people how to change there new ways and get back to basics and THINK about what they are doing . The problems never change and are the same where ever i have gone .

CFR. ABS. If you deal with these or other certifying agencies, you will quickly weary of being told what to do by someone who doesn't know as much about it as you do. Just having to know how to look up the applicable reg and bear in mind that these regs are superceded by equivalencies, or "intent" at the certifying inspector's discretion is onerous. Actually applying regulations by the book when some of these are out-of-date, mal-appropriate, or just plain dumb is an exercise in frustration.
Just two? How about two thousand? How about demonstrating two instances where a government took over something and it got better... Amtrak? Postal Service? Housing? Banking? Medicine?

"I'm here to help"

Originally Posted by rwatson

Name your two most onerous (relating to boats)

Well, the banning of all our old, reliable, fat displacement engines due to "environmental" hazards! The Industry as the merchant shipping companies do´nt have to worry for the next decade, but tha tax payer has to. I am sure that all boats in Europe do not pollute as much as ONE of the VLCC does, per annum.
Today we have to play with the Nintendo generation of Diesels, which may be sufficient for the average boater, but not for a true passagemaking vessel.

Do´nt get me wrong I am one of the first to sign environmental friendly contracts, but the main polluter first, then the poor rest.

The new MCA related standards of crew accommodation, the sheer nonsense.
Again, do´nt get me wrong, but a 7m² single cabin as a minimum accomm. regardless of the size of yacht is a bit far away from being sensible.

Just two, you asked for that.

Regards
Richard

[masalai]

Caveat emptor, and pay attention when building by doing your own supervision. Do not ever trust the salesman - even when you are holding the gun and squeezing his testicles...

rwatson, on toilet treatment & pumpout but no places to pump out http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/outhouse.html ... Registration of boats Federally (Australian registration) and State registration with NT free, and Qld a right pain in the hip pocket.... Insurance compliance in Queensland and our loveable customs/quarantine/immigration http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/gov-shame.html http://www.thecoastalpassage.com/lifeandpolitics.html all good reads though

[BeauVrolyk]

Originally Posted by rwatson

I tried finding a copy on line, but with no luck. I dont feel like typing in the whole transcript, but the same sentiments can be found on his website

http://www.kelsall.com/images/articl...hesandwich.pdf

"Get rid of the Balsa TimeBomb"

and the rest.

Re letting the government dictate boat building material - I know I wouldnt leave it to boatbuilders alone. Its not like they are paragons of quality.

Thanks for the URL, I read the article. He is certainly proud of his boats, and I must admit to be more than a little amazed that he actually claimed to have practically invented building PVC cored boats. But, the arrogance aside, he is making a large number of claims utterly unsupported by anything other than his own opinion and a few stories.

No experimental data was provided, other than a reference to his "personal" test of sloshing bare foam or balsa or whatever around in water. This is something that has very little to do with the environment in which the core will be used. The "testing" of cell structures was without controls, without any descriptions of the parameters, without comparisons to controls.

I am someone who deals with scientific testing of materials all the time. Unfortunately, that's not what we have here. I'm afraid that this document shows nothing but opinions. Granted, these are the opinions of an experienced person; unfortunately, there are equally experienced people on the other side of this argument.

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by tunnels

When i started in the glassing industry in 1972 we used Balsa all the time and never ever had a problem . ...
Balsa is the same, people trying to take short cuts and use materials that are not recomended . Sticking balsa down in wet glass is ok but has to be done properly and there are trick associated that no one has taken any notice to learn !!.
Me, i always use a slurry mix formulated over a period of time by the guys i worked with ...
For the past 10 years i have spent my life travelling to differant countries to simply show people how to change there new ways

So basically, unless they have spent 10 years in the industry, no-one should be using balsa because it requires so much "trickiness" to make it work ?

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by BeauVrolyk

without controls, without any descriptions of the parameters, without comparisons to controls.

I am someone who deals with scientific testing of materials all the time. Unfortunately, that's not what we have here. .... there are equally experienced people on the other side of this argument.

yes, I think you have it nicely 'encapsulated' there (old Balsa Pun).

Like Tunnels, dont trust anyone's opinion until you have tried and tested it personally.

It always seemed stange to me that "the whole boatbuilding industry is useing it" but "it should be banned". Seemed that there might be a bit of middle ground there somewhere.

[Boston]

I may not know Jack about fiberglass construction methods
but I do know all about woodwork
you cannot legislate quality
Ive seen guys sporting all the tools, eons of experience and certainly look the part who I wouldnt trust to build an outhouse
on the flip side Ive seen guys who looked like they just got out of the penitentiary who were some of the best carps I ever worked with
hell you should see the hillbilly's I guy my raw lumber from
your not going to influence either type much with a few new rules

I definitely follow code, however, consider it a minimum standard and not always exactly the bulls eye, Its often advantageous to exceed code and I make it a point to do so regularly

the threads an interesting read though

in a nut shell
any further regulation isnt of much use if the regulations there already are can hardly be met by the butchers most builders are anyway
whats needed is craftsmanship
although there did seem to be some excellent arguments to be had concerning materials failures
so will be reading along
best
B

[dougfrolich]

This is getting re-DICK-u-lous.
I think we should ban stupidity,-- immediately--because IT is dangerous.

[Alan M.]

Originally Posted by rwatson

Just had a read of the Australian catamaran magazine "Australian Multihull World" may/June 2009

Our mate, Derek Kelsall had an article in there, where he advocates banning balsa as a core material.

He states there are a plethora of articles on the internet on the "wet balsa problem".

I understand most end grain balsa is encapsulated in either Vynelester or Polyester, which is not as waterproof as Epoxy. is that the problem?

Is it really that bad - what have people found ?

I read this article too.

I was very unimpressed by Derek Kelsall's contribution.

All the other kit boat designers were simply stating the positives of their build method, whereas Kelsall spent the majority of his time criticizing other designs, criticising anyone using different materials from him (including epoxy), and casting doubts over claimed build times from other designers.

The rest of his time was spent claiming credit for virtually every advance in boatbuilding that has ever occurred.

Frankly, I doubt the claims HE makes for build times. All you hear about are his workshops - where there might be a dozen people working, and the huge job of building a perfectly flat and airtight table which is longer than the boat is never mentioned.

[rwatson]

Originally Posted by Alan M.

Frankly, I doubt the claims HE makes for build times. All you hear about are his workshops - where there might be a dozen people working, and the huge job of building a perfectly flat and airtight table which is longer than the boat is never mentioned.

This boatbuilding time thing is an interesting issue. Derek quotes about 4 hours work per square metre for strip planking, which from my experience is about right.

I dont think that building a long flat table from say, melamime covered mdf is a big chore. I hope not, because that is what I will have to do on my next boat. The 'infused' setup scares the heck out of me though

Farrier uses foam in 'baskets' and claims good time results, but sanding and finishing two sides of a foam core doesnt sound really fun.

I am getting the impression that hand laying over balsa is fraught with problems based on responses to this article.

I wonder if there has actually been any 'scientific' studies of boatbuilding methods and the times involved. I have read a lot of 'I think that...', but has anyone ever kept logs, and detailed records??