FlyBridge Research

[musun]

Hey guys,

I just signed up the boatdesign.net. Because I hope you would help me with a problem.

I have a research project about Ergonomic Design of Indicators (like why are they circular , if they are, or cornered) and Arrangment of them to the command console on FlyBridge.

I do not have any idea, what kind of indicators are on the console and how do you choose to put them together, I mean, what is the relativity of the indicators on arrangment, what is the criteria ?

And what is the angle of the console place, 30 degrees 25 ? What is it ? And why is it , lets say 35 (or whatever it is) degrees ?

An annotated document of those would be very very helpful.

Thanks in advance to you all.

[Submarine Tom]

Primary gauges, secondary gauges. Do you know the difference?

-Tom

[CDK]

The instruments are round because nobody ever came up with a viable idea for a square hole drill. Even the square instruments are usually covering a circular hole.

This will prove to be an interesting research project, because a flybridge is a nasty place for any instruments (glare, rain etc), yet in many cases they are packed with all sorts of unnecessary gadgets. Impressing visitors may be the main purpose, but no owner will admit that.

[michael pierzga]

Difficult to say. Many different boats. Ergonomics. On a modern wheelhouse less is best...No instrument displays. NONE. All readings available via a flat touch screen display, with stand alone alarms and indicator lights for critical functions. Instruments are clutter take up precious wheelhouse space and are very distracting at night with light pollution.

Mission critical, stand alone displays...depth, compass..... will be HUGE , high up visible from many angles and at a distance and have remote dimming capability.

When navigating you never look at instruments...you look ahead and stand watch.


Many modern wheelhouse only have two displays. Port and starboard..radar chart plotter and data touch screen or mouse driven. I prefer a mouse driven display.

All displays must have Blackout ability so that the wheelhouse can be made 100 percent light free when requires.

All displays must be visable in bright sunlight

Side and front Wheelhouse window curtains are critical to block daytime low sun angle light from nav instruments.

All lights must have dimmer switches.

No dashboard reflection onto the windows...day or night must affect visibility thru the windscreens. Black and white dashboard covers is what I use.

[musun]

@ pierzga

Thanks but that is wheelhouse you are talking about, there is no curtains, no windows on flybridge. As you know it is a fully opened place, sometimes hard-top or another type like (bimini top or something) used, but not a closed area. So I could only use, indicator definitions about visibility, from what you wrote. Thanks.

@ CDK

Well why are the instruments rounded ? I think rounded things might lead to seasickness, is that a wrong idea ? And, console is being protected from weather conditions, they put some kind of shield, FlyBridges are not used in winter, so they keep every electronic staff protected until summer, or spring. I heard that, and it makes sense.

@Tom

I think I have an idea about them. Primary gauges , are the important ones, in comparison with secondaries, they need to be nearer. Is that true ?

Guys, the most important question for me right now ;

what are the indicators on the console of a 27-meter Motor Yacht's FlyBridge ?

[michael pierzga]

The modern flybridge is also a main area for navigation. The rules of wheelhouse design are the same. Less is best. High visibility in sunlight. The modern displays can be configured to display many pages of engine data on one instrument. The visual displays are backup by stand alone alarms. ... Oil pressure low buzzer.... These are RayMarine. Many other companies.

http://www.raymarine.com/ProductDeta...5&PRODUCT=4283

http://www.raymarine.com/ProductDeta...5&PRODUCT=4336

[Landlubber]

Well why are the instruments rounded ?.......CDK almost said it, but it is because you can drill a hole to fit it....simple really...every tried to drill a square hole mate.

[Stumble]

Musun,

You raise a few points, and I think have a few misconceptions about the way a fly bridge is used.

Rounded instruments:
I have never heard of anyone complain about seasickness being a concern with rounded instruments, and am not sure I could envision why it would be an issue. Most instruments are simply glanced over to determine if there is a problem, or a critical issue in regular use, or in the event of say smoke as a diagnostic (engine temp). You almost never would have your eye locked to an instrument panel for more than a few seconds at a time.

My guess on why they are round is that is it much easier to make rotating gauges than it is another type, and if the needle rotates you might as well have the instrument match it. Plus instalation is easier thanks to hole saws, and they are easier and cheaper to manufacture than square fixtures.

Protection from the elements:
Most instrument panels do not have a cover or shield over them. You could argue that it would be a good idea to do so, but anything other than a removable cover also adds to glare, and could make it hard to read the instruments in question

There are a few boats that have lifting panels on hydrolic cylinders for instrument panels, and while they can be nice, when they break they are a real pian.


Gauges:
No matter how you classify them or how the data is displayed there are a few pieces on information that a pilot of a vessel will constantly look at, and a few others that while of critical importance are only inspected rarely.

Fuel tank status for instance may be one of the most important pieces of information for a captain to have, but assuming the tnk hasn't been breached is not going to change significantly even over the course of an hour. So this gauge needs to be visable, it does not need to be in the center of the console.

Speed on the other hand is something that most pilots on every boat check every few minutes or more.

The radar or Chartplotter is something else that most pilots check maybe every minute or so. But it is tricky because that also put out a huge amount of light. It also needs to be close enough that the font can be read without leaning over and taking your eyes off the water while fiddeling with it.

Every pilot has his own ideas of what needs to be displayed at all times, and moder multi-function displays make this even more complicated because they can add alarms that for some indicators are really all you need.


As for what a 27m yacht would have... It really depends on what type of boat it is. For instance sailboats, fishing boats, pleasure cruisers, river barges, all might have very different instrument needs. Though you can assume at a minimum the following (I will likely forget a few too).


Navigation:
Chartplotter
Speed
Depth
Radar (may overlay with the chartplotter)
Closed Circuit TV display (most often used on fishing boats to see fighting chair)
Electrical flood light controls
Windlass controls and chain out counter

Engines (for each engine)
Oil temp
Oil preassure
Exhaust temp (possibly)
RPM
Fuel
Number of engine hours
Trim indicator (for trim tabs)
Transmision oil temp (rare, but some people like them)
Transmision oil preassure (again rare)
If 2+ engines a indicator if they are sycronized
Bow thruster controls
Engine switched / throttles

Communication
VHF controls
SSB controls (may not be at flybridge )
SatPhone headset
Loud hailer mic (may double with VHF)
AF/FM/CD/XM Radio controls


The reality though is there is no 'standard' package of instruments a boat will have on it. But in general every helm station should display the condition of the major systems on the boat to indicate if there is a problem, and have controls to operate the primary systems on the boat. Even from a flybridge.

[michael pierzga]

Instrument packages can be used as a design feature....some people just like the looks of all that stuff. Surf the net and look at Riva and Frauscher boats for inspiration in your dashboard layout. Frauscher is super elegant

If its a modern yacht Id go modern minimal look. Minimal is also more durable..less light bulbs to burn, faces to crack, leak , fewer wire lugs, terminals,and less wire bulk.

Originally Posted by michael pierzga

Difficult to say. Many different boats. Ergonomics. On a modern wheelhouse less is best...No instrument displays. NONE. All readings available via a flat touch screen display, with stand alone alarms and indicator lights for critical functions. Instruments are clutter take up precious wheelhouse space and are very distracting at night with light pollution.

Why all this dumb drivel again Pierzga?
RPM, oil pressure and temp gauges for the engine/s are mandatory! There is NO display which could replace them.
Mission critical, stand alone displays...depth, compass..... will be HUGE , high up visible from many angles and at a distance and have remote dimming capability.

When navigating you never look at instruments...you look ahead and stand watch.
The EXPERT is talking again! It is well possible that YOU never look at instruments, but every sane skipper does!

Many modern wheelhouse only have two displays. Port and starboard..radar chart plotter and data touch screen or mouse driven. I prefer a mouse driven display.
All displays must have Blackout ability so that the wheelhouse can be made 100 percent light free when requires.
All displays must be visable in bright sunlight
Side and front Wheelhouse window curtains are critical to block daytime low sun angle light from nav instruments.
All lights must have dimmer switches.
No dashboard reflection onto the windows...day or night must affect visibility thru the windscreens. Black and white dashboard covers is what I use.

You really should stop copying our advice, because you are not able to understand what we are talking.

Musun,
Analog gauges are the best instrumentation you can install. Forget about all displays. And of course they are round. A analog gauge is much easier to "understand" intuitive, than a digital one. And the clutter on a laden CRT or LCD display is a pita.

The angle you only can test with a mockup, or on the real vessel. Too different the designs. Instruments should be as good readible while seated and standing upright at the helm. Some 35° - 40° are often found to be a good compromise.

Regards
Richard

Helms should be Squared away with lots of curves in the essential areas.


Every Sailor likes Curves.

[Landlubber]

...that damned girl gets in the way of the pic, how do you expect us to see the beautiful wheel with her falling all over it!

[missinginaction]

Something that I haven't seen mentioned.....the orientation of the gauges.

I've taken a page from the design playbook of some auto racers I know. When installing analog gauges I orient the gauges after all known normal operating parameters are known. What this means is that the indicator needles on all the gauges (except fuel) point straight up when the engine(s) are operating normally. All the skipper needs to do is glance at the panel. If any gauge is out of vertical it demands attention. Most of the time though everythings fine and a quick glance confirms it. After awhile your peripheral vision will pick up any bad readings so you don't really even need to actively look. Eliminates "reading" gauges.

MIA

[FAST FRED]

For most pleasure boats , the "watch stander" may simply be someones date looking to see that the boat doesn't turn and aim for land.

Without the scan techniques of old recip pilots , there is basically no one watching the engine.

Even in the jet age , gauges would be set in the panel so all pointed aft , leaning back at a glance 80+ gauges could be checked , for a limp needle.

www.fwmurphy.co.


These folks mfg gauges that have alarm functions , so if properly set up the engine and drive can be protected at all times , with every crew.

The gauges themselves are mechanical, so will work regardless of the electrical condition of the boat , they will operate even after a lightning side strike.

While $100 grand of trashed electric toys will be heading for the dumpster .

FF

[michael pierzga]

I never ... REPEAT, NEVER... look at gauges while on watch. I rely on engine alarms and only enter " Engine Readings" at log book intervals. Modern integrated bridge electronics allow you to call up "to menu" any information needed. The rest of the time you rely on alarm sensors.
Its a waste of space and a terrible distraction at night to have a dash full of gauges .