Boat Design Forums  |  Boat Design Directory  |  Boat Design Gallery  |  Boat Design Book Store  |  Thanks to Our Site Sponsors
  #106  
Old 04-09-2015, 07:03 AM
CDBarry CDBarry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rep: 354 Posts: 736
Location: Maryland
The idea that some how a university education disqualifies one from practical knowledge or design skill is something that is said a lot, but in my experience, I haven't seen it much. There is a tendency for highly qualified engineers to do a lot of analysis vs. design, but that is because they have the capability to do complicated analyses, and they can also do the designs if needed.

I have worked with a lot of highly qualified engineers, not only naval architects, but engineers in many other disciplines, and have generally found that they have as good practical knowledge as anyone else, often better because a deep understanding of the physics illuminates practical experience and allows extending it into innovative designs. Good fundamental understanding of the physics and math also allows using "analogies" from one area to be used in another.

One of my favorites here, though it was analysis rather than design, was a key part of a very complex design problem: It was necessary to determine the forces on an object emerging rapidly from a manuevering underwater object. A professor at UCB realized that the analogy between electrical potential and hydrodynamic potential allowed the complex geometry to be modeled by objects submerged in a weak electrolyte. Then by measuring the voltage potential between various points on the geometry, the potential flow coeffiecient could be determined and the forces calculated.

In a design case, we needed to develop a hydrofoil for an unusual application. Fortunately, we was aware of enough air foil theory to know that a "barn roof" lift distribution was what was needed to get past stall and avoid cavitation, so we selected a GAW-1 section, and the craft worked. In the same project, understanding the physics of manuevering allowed development of a pitch-stable configuration. None of this would have been possible without the theory and enough math to analyze it and build a computer model.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 04-09-2015, 09:55 AM
Alik's Avatar
Alik Alik is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Rep: 1306 Posts: 2,628
Location: Thailand
Professor is regulated title; usually requires at least University degree in the field, in most cases - Ph.D. In most of countries it is regulated by law, in others just regulated as matter ethics in research community. One calling himself a 'professor' without having even a bachelor in the field and without a single scientific publication is just devaluating and disrespecting his colleagues, who worked hard in legal way to get the titles and qualifications. There but should be some limit to this absurd, profanation and exaGERRation!

Tomorrow they will start calling themselves admirals - why not?
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 04-09-2015, 10:05 AM
Alik's Avatar
Alik Alik is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Rep: 1306 Posts: 2,628
Location: Thailand
Quote:
Originally Posted by CDBarry View Post
The idea that some how a university education disqualifies one from practical knowledge or design skill is something that is said a lot...
I would not listen to such sayers. They say that just because they have no degree and want a kind of justification. We saw a lot of such on this forum - they honestly believe that they 'think out of the box', and engineers with degree are only worth run errands for their genius ideas. Leave them alone with their self-rating.

Not true as the experience shows. Absence of university education is not a value, it is a disadvantage and limitation. Talent plus proper education matters.

Level of responsibility of fully qualified engineer is not comparable with yacht designer from correspondence school, even if the latter was told the school has 50,000 alumni
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 04-14-2015, 11:06 AM
Qvox Qvox is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Rep: 10 Posts: 10
Location: United States
Why do so many people seemed threatened?

The simple fact is a lot of autodidacts have made tremendous contributions to the world. Is it because of the competition? The fact that there are indeed a lot of very successful yacht designers who don't have traditional education credentials?

There are very successful Westlawn yacht designers. That's just a fact.

The world has too many gatekeepers.
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 04-14-2015, 11:39 AM
CDBarry CDBarry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rep: 354 Posts: 736
Location: Maryland
That's correct. There are also a lot of successful completely self trained designers. There are also university educated designers, some of whom also did all or part of the Westlawn course.

Westlawn is especially useful for people already in the rec boat industry who can't fit in a university education.

It is not the first choice for some one who can attend a university, even if not specifically in naval architecture mainly because most NAME jobs are in other than rec boats and possibly because of a growing trend toward seeking real engineering degrees even by employers in the rec boat industry.

However, my point of view is partly colored by the fact that I wasn't really interested in rec boat design and went into NAME because my father was a merchant marine officer and I lived in a shipyard town, and was mostly interested in commercial, military and oil patch stuff. (And we later worked in the same ship design firm for a while before I switched to off shore oil.)

I think that the two issues people are concerned with is the use of titles and terms that have more conventional definitions and the fact that university programs have a certain level of vetting due to the fact that the textbooks are otherwise available, the instructors have a body of publications that are available and so on, but Westlawn doesn't have such a conventional method of vetting.
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 07-27-2015, 11:35 PM
alanrockwood alanrockwood is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Rep: 116 Posts: 123
Location: USA
How about if we go right to the bottom line and address the following question: "Does the Westlawn program do what it claims to do, assuming the student does what he/she is supposed to do?"
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 07-28-2015, 02:24 AM
PAR's Avatar
PAR PAR is offline
Yacht Designer/Builder
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rep: 3967 Posts: 17,963
Location: Eustis, FL
The list of success stories out of WestLawn is quite long, many well noted too. In the end it depends on what you want from this type of program. It's not a matter of gatekeepers, but of credentialed candidates, for prospective positions. The appropriate "papers" will offer some assurances to those seeking new hires, while the self taught will be low on the list comparatively.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 08-27-2015, 08:23 PM
CDBarry CDBarry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rep: 354 Posts: 736
Location: Maryland
One key issue is whether or not Westlawn continues to be relevant today.

In the past, it was prohibitively expensive to even do basic hydrostats and there were only very simple structural standards so yacht design was mainly esthetic and rule of thumb. Now CFD and FEA are common, at least for high end projects and there are now complex stability and structural standards that require a substantial level of expertise. This tends to mitigate in favor of a real engineering degree.

In addition, most jobs in naval architecture are in commercial and military, rather than in rec boats, and Westlawn is no help there. There are many fewer jobs in rec boats than in other areas.

That said, Westlawn is probably very useful for a lot of positions in the rec boat industry such as survey, construction and so on.

It is probably worth looking at Eric Sponberg's article on a career in yacht design.

Last edited by CDBarry : 08-30-2015 at 12:53 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 10-05-2015, 10:37 AM
Alik's Avatar
Alik Alik is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Rep: 1306 Posts: 2,628
Location: Thailand
Quite interesting, my staff was trying to contact Westlawn for short courses and there is no reply. Are they still active?

PS I saw Yacht Design for Artists link there, but it does not open. Might be interesting and very demanded (I was giving similar course at Chula Uni in Thailand).
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 01-21-2016, 03:38 PM
u4ea32's Avatar
u4ea32 u4ea32 is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Rep: 192 Posts: 416
Location: Los Angeles
A year in, and Westlawn is doing great. We have increased enrollment by 100%, we are now very strong financially.

Westlawn continues to attract top students. During 2015, our new students include those who have already earned bachelors and masters degrees from Webb, Michigan, Southampton, and ArtCenter. So Westlawn continues to be the place that people go when then realize they want to design boats and yachts, instead of breakwaters and oil platforms.

The most important things we are doing are increasing the value we provide to students. We have increased the rate our students progress through the course. We have increased the software tools they have available, and both online and classroom training in those tools, including AutoCAD, Maxsurf, and Rhino+Orca3d.

Westlawn provides our students with all the books they need too, including the latest editions by Blount, Larsson, and Fosetti.

Westlawn now provides classroom courses at the Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, California, where our top student last term earned an internship at Palmer Johnson in Monaco.

Perhaps most exciting is the work we are doing in the multihull and hydrofoil domains with our collaboration with Morrelli & Melvin. Very exciting stuff. Pete is letting us provide to our students all M&M software for multihull and hydrofoil design. Putting courses around this software is a challenge, but we are doing it.

So Westlawn continues to be the place to go if you want to learn to design yachts and boats, and be successful in your career.
__________________
David Smyth
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 01-21-2016, 07:28 PM
alanrockwood alanrockwood is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Rep: 116 Posts: 123
Location: USA
What is the current cost?
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 01-21-2016, 11:21 PM
Ad Hoc Ad Hoc is offline
Naval Architect
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Rep: 2488 Posts: 5,203
Location: Japan
Quote:
Originally Posted by u4ea32 View Post
So Westlawn continues to be the place that people go when then realize they want to design boats and yachts, instead of breakwaters and oil platforms..
You are going down a very slippery slope by make such generalised assumptions and comments on highly respected naval arch courses. These courses provide the fundamental theories to do any type of naval arch. from yachts to super tankers.

The direction in which the student goes, is up to them....not the course per se.

What you are providing, from you soliloquy above, is what any naval arch would learn on the job in the first 1 - 2 years as part of the industrial training. Such training is part of the continuing education and development of any naval arch graduate. And never stops..or should not, until retirement.
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 01-21-2016, 11:35 PM
PAR's Avatar
PAR PAR is offline
Yacht Designer/Builder
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Rep: 3967 Posts: 17,963
Location: Eustis, FL
John, David (u4ea32) is a WestLawn board member and I suspect part of the revamp process, the school has been going though in the last year.
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 05-09-2016, 09:48 AM
alanrockwood alanrockwood is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Rep: 116 Posts: 123
Location: USA
What does the change of control mean for tuition costs?
Reply With Quote


  #120  
Old 05-10-2016, 05:54 AM
CDBarry CDBarry is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Rep: 354 Posts: 736
Location: Maryland
Actually I am looking forward to retiring so that I will have more time to study and do research. (Big plans for building a Beowulf cluster for running SPhysics and OpenFoam.)
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
The Battery of the Future? Manie B All Things Boats & Boating 7 05-31-2013
01:09 AM 
70 Wallypower future simonB Boat Design 5 08-10-2006
05:12 PM 
The Future of Boating ??? sharkeymarine Boat Design 12 07-25-2006
02:49 AM 
Back To The Future..... Wynand N Sailboats 10 06-19-2005
10:57 AM 
Future in boatbuilding flajjer All Things Boats & Boating 30 06-05-2005
01:16 PM 

Forum posts represent the experience, opinion, and view of individual users. Boat Design Net does not necessarily endorse nor share the view of each individual post.
When making potentially dangerous or financial decisions, always employ and consult appropriate professionals. Your circumstances or experience may be different.

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:23 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Web Site Design and Content Copyright ©1999 - 2017 Boat Design Net