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  #91  
Old 04-02-2015, 09:19 AM
CDBarry CDBarry is offline
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Work boats present some issues:

Some of them are more heavily regulated than yachts and represent more risk to the public and thus require expertise beyond the level of yacht designers without any engineering training. For example an FV may have to meet 46 CFR 28.500 stability requirements. Many small aluminum vessels may have to meet NVIC 11-80, which requires some understanding of structures (including section modulus) or more sophisticated rules like DnV or Lloyds Special Service Craft which require even more engineering.

Such craft also often have special equipment that requires engineering expertise like monster hydraulic systems, etc.

Also, where does "workboat" end? (Though realistically speaking, I don't think Hornbeck or Moran would go to a yacht designer for an OSV or a harbor tug.)
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  #92  
Old 04-02-2015, 09:51 AM
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May I say, many yacht designers are a) not capable to design a workboat, say to produce stability booklet of 200-500 pages, etc. and b) would not touch it as it will create their reputation as 'but this guy is workboat designer!' Not so prestige and luxury, but - I would say - sometimes even more challenging. Not talking about social aspect - many 'workboats' save lives, provide security, transportation, etc. What America's Cup boats do? Toys for the rich? The responsibility and skill levels for yacht (even high-tech staff) and for ferry design are not comparable.

So, we try to design all
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  #93  
Old 04-02-2015, 10:20 AM
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daiquiri daiquiri is offline
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There was a time when I thought that it is easy to earn money by working for very rich people.
Then I have painfully discovered that they are usually also very, very smart and very, very demanding. Getting that penny from them is a hell of a job.
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  #94  
Old 04-02-2015, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daiquiri View Post
There was a time when I thought that it is easy to earn money by working for very rich people.
Then I have painfully discovered that they are usually also very, very smart and very, very demanding. Getting that penny from them is a hell of a job.
Yes and they often don't want to make the final decision and formally confirm any intermediate stage. They feel they can change anything and time, even beam of boat in construction by 2 foot. This is just small change, isn't it?

And yes, very few people are ready to pay for design of pleasure boat, especially for smaller ones. "Why drawings are so expensive? No, I don't want to order stability calculations, cut is from delivery list! Can't the yard just build boat from picture in magazine, by scaling it down from 130 to 60 foot? Would it still look sleek? Etc."

Yacht dreamers are filtered out at concept invoice stage. That's it, it is a test. Another test is to ask them to put some requirements on paper. Just basic. If they cant do it, they don't yet know what they want...
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  #95  
Old 04-02-2015, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DCockey View Post
I doubt any single individual is designing super or mega yachts, including the naval architecture work. Even when one designer's name is associated with the design a team of individuals will be involved.
Agree, sure this means that they are able to feed the whole team from superyacht. But small yacht designers are usually on wife's account
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  #96  
Old 04-02-2015, 01:14 PM
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Leo Lazauskas Leo Lazauskas is offline
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Originally Posted by u4ea32 View Post
I am sorry if someone does not like to consider Dave Gerr a Professor of Naval Architecture. I gave him that title. That is what he is. That is what he does. That is what he has been doing for many years.

As far as I can find, there is no statute that restricts the use of that title.
There are probably Professors of Used Car Salemanship too.
To me it makes Westlawn sound like a giant con-job, an operation pretending to
be something it isn't.
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  #97  
Old 04-02-2015, 01:40 PM
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rxcomposite rxcomposite is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daiquiri View Post
There was a time when I thought that it is easy to earn money by working for very rich people.
Then I have painfully discovered that they are usually also very, very smart and very, very demanding. Getting that penny from them is a hell of a job.
They are rich because they are smart. They can squeeze the talent out of you down to the very last drop because they know what you are capable of.

On the other hand, I have worked for some not so smart ones. They are more interested in getting their egos stoked and pretend to be rulers of the world. Naturally, they being not so smart can squeeze out only 16 to 20% of their staff talent. They don't know what they want in the first place, so they pretend most of the time.
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  #98  
Old 04-03-2015, 02:16 AM
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peter radclyffe peter radclyffe is offline
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Originally Posted by rxcomposite View Post
They are rich because they are smart. They can squeeze the talent out of you down to the very last drop because they know what you are capable of.

On the other hand, I have worked for some not so smart ones. They are more interested in getting their egos stoked and pretend to be rulers of the world. Naturally, they being not so smart can squeeze out only 16 to 20% of their staff talent. They don't know what they want in the first place, so they pretend most of the time.
so true
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  #99  
Old 04-03-2015, 10:59 AM
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Regarding newly appointed 'professor', there is one fact. I noticed that at IBEX presentations of Gerr are almost never attended by naval architects with degree. To me, this is very clear indication of engineering level and professional reputation.
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  #100  
Old 04-08-2015, 09:10 AM
BMcF BMcF is offline
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Originally Posted by Alik View Post
To me, this is very clear indication of engineering level and professional reputation.
To you, perhaps. Not to everyone though.
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  #101  
Old 04-08-2015, 12:15 PM
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Ike Ike is offline
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I have worked with a lot of engineers, some of them NAs, who didn't know how to apply their knowledge in a practical way. Yeah, they could take tests and get degrees but design something that worked? There are engineers, and then there are real engineers, and some of those real engineers did not have degrees in engineering. But they had lots of practical experience and knew how to apply it. So your argument that holding a degree indicates a level of professionalism doesn't hold water.
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  #102  
Old 04-08-2015, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ike View Post
I have worked with a lot of engineers, some of them NAs, who didn't know how to apply their knowledge in a practical way. Yeah, they could take tests and get degrees but design something that worked? There are engineers, and then there are real engineers, and some of those real engineers did not have degrees in engineering. But they had lots of practical experience and knew how to apply it. So your argument that holding a degree indicates a level of professionalism doesn't hold water.
Agree about practical knowledge. BUT does it mean that shaman can be called a professor?
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  #103  
Old 04-08-2015, 07:51 PM
Keelboater Keelboater is offline
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About 20 years ago, I found older hard copies of the Westlawn Yacht Design program at the town dump of all places! I do not mean that in a bad way, and the person who left them there made sure that an interested party would find them. So I took them home and began reading. Although it didn't compare to university standards, lets just say the price was right for the 80% of the course that was there. It remains one of the best finds I have ever come across!
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  #104  
Old 04-08-2015, 09:35 PM
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Ike Ike is offline
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I don't know. I have always thought a prof was a phd, but from what I Have read here that isn't necessarily so
Anyone can teach if they have the knowledge. What they call themselves may not be all that important. I have almost a 40 year history with Westlawn and they have never in the past touted themselves as anything more than a course in Yacht design. They have at times partnered with colleges but if a degree was offered it came from the college, not Westlawn, and you had to meet the colleges requirements. But they did accept some of the Westlawn course for credit.
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  #105  
Old 04-09-2015, 12:41 AM
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Leo Lazauskas Leo Lazauskas is offline
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I don't think a PhD should be required.
At a minimum I would expect a (true) professor of naval architecture
and marine engineering to be eligible for a professional engineering
body and, at some stage in their career, to have been able to qualify
for professional idemnity insurance.
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