Westlawn Shool of Yacht Design

[michal]

I seriously thing about studying in Westlawn. Every private opinions about this course (alumni? students?) have great importance for me.
Thank You....
Michal

[Jeff]

I believe there are a couple people visiting the forums who have graduated from the Westlawn program, so hopefully they will reply to this post or send you a private message or an email.

You might also find this site interesting which displays some student projects done for the Westlawn courses:
http://homepages.ihug.co.nz/~jomeder.../galindex.html

Also here are two Westlawn students' websites for you to browse or contact them:
http://members.tripod.com/~jcnyd/
http://members.iquest.net/~wwills/

[Jeff]

Patrick Bray <http://www.brayyachtdesign.bc.ca/> and Dudley Dix <http://www.dixdesign.com> are both graduates of Westlawn.

Also, here are some threads which I pulled from usenet discussing Westlawn. Note that some of these thread are a little dated, but they are still mostly on topic:

How would you compare an education from Westlawn to one from MIT or U of M? I know that Westlawn is much more focused on small powerboat design, but I wonder about the quality of long-distance learning vs. classroom instruction since you're paying a substantial amount for either. Is a Westlawn degree going to open any doors - is it a respected degree in the industry?

It is very respected in the industry: Westlawn is, in some way, sponsored by the NMMA (US National Marine Manufacturers Association). During my occasional involvements with US boat manufacturers, I had to hire designers and Westlawn graduation was a big plus. I also took their CAD course just to get the paper and I can only say good things about their teaching. Compared to a university course, Westlawn is more to the point, more practical, better fitted to the needs of the industry but it does not go very far in theory. You will not get your PE license with the Westlawn course.

Westlawn requires a serious commitment, in time and money. If you work on your course 4 or 5 hours a week, sometimes 10, you may graduate in two years. You have to pay for the whole course in advance. To learn at a more relaxed pace and with less financial commitment, see the YDS course: http://www.macnaughtongroup.com

They also allow the use of CAD and even teach it.

I'd love to see a survey of where leading designers were educated...

I learned the basics in Europe: engineering degree plus two years of architecture for the drafting. Then worked for other designers and
boatbuilders. Westlawn has a long list of references.

Jacques (news@bateau.com)
Posted: 1999/02/05

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I'm seriously considering enrolling in Westlawn's yacht design course and would appreciate any information, real or heresy, about their program. Comments from graduates especially welcome. Tim

I am a current student, about 1/2 way through the first 1/4.

The texts are a bit home made, but I think they give you a reasonable treatment of most subjects. Send for their brochure, it has a complete table of contents.

I found a few errors in some of the examples, but nothing major. In addition to the texts they supply, you have to buy a bunch of drafting equipment.

I am going very slowly, as I travel most of the time, so I am not likely to ever finish. But, I got into it just for interest sake. Besides
I’m pushing fifty and will soon retire . . . not work as a yacht designer!!

Good luck.

Maurice
nunas@slip.technet.sg
Posted: 1995/11/17

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I completed their computer-aided design course last year. Even though I have been doing computer graphics for 15 years, it was
very instructive on the advantages and disadvantages of wireframe versus surface modeling programs, and how to use each.
I have also employed several Westlawn students while I was running Broward Marine's engineering department. In general
Westlawn seems to be a good education in practical boatbuilding and yacht design up to a point. I would have to generalize, but
it seems to be good for designing any type of boat under, say 70 feet intended mainly for coastal use (at least where poweryachts
are concerned). An engineering degree provides much better upper-end opportunities for advancement as well as understanding
of naval architecture, but then how ambitious are you? The days of a Westlawn graduate being the principal design engineer of a
megayacht are numbered, unless that person does a lot of additional engineering education. But if your ambitions are to
design and build your own boat, or work in the design and construction of smaller craft Westlawn will be plenty adequate.
Kevin Kerwin
Posted: 1995/11/21

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I am considering the Yacht design course by Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology. Does anyone have first hand knowledge of the course, school??
Are there any similar programs out there?? Any help would be appreciated.

I can only hope that this is the beginning to long thread of info that I've been looking for myself! Let me explain. I "am" a Westlawn student. I can say that the course is very intensive, grueling at some points, very thorough, and if you don't like to spend a lot of time
drawing or studying, and I mean a "lot of time", the course may not be for you. On the other hand, if all of the above fit your lifestyle, I couldn't recommend a better opportunity. I'm very close to the half way point in the course, and no matter what happens in the future, I will never regret, but will always appreciate, what I learned from the school. The course specializes in "Yacht Design", and although you will acquire an education in "Yacht Design", what you will learn from the course will enable you to apply those learned skills to every aspect of "Naval Architecture" that you may ever encounter. If you plan on designing anything between a 10' pram to a 60'
Motorsailer, this course is great. If your dreams are much larger than that, this is a great starting point. One of the main advantages ,is the fact that it is a coresspondence course, and for my particular situation, I couldn't have found any other resource for the dynamic education that Westlawn has to offer. I could go on and on about my experiences thus far. I'd be glad to fill in all the missing spaces if anyone has any questions, and if there are any other Westlawn students out there, I'd be more than happy to chat. heygus@iw.edwpub.com
Russ Schweger
Posted: 1997/01/15

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First of all, thanks for the reply.. You mentioned lots of drawing, are you doing any on CAD? I was told that I could start on CAD after lesson 12..Since I use Autocad on a daily basis, this will probably speed things up for me (?). How long have you been working at it and estimate the hours per week (month). Also do you get good support from the faculty (by mail or phone)? Hope to hear from more of you....

When I was taking the course 5-6 years ago, they would NOT allow me to use a CAD system. I complained that drawing these boats took way too much time and using a CAD would be much better. I even purchased a used plotter to plot these drawing out.

They stated to me that actual detail drawings forced the student to better understand why a certain line was drawn, and using CAD could make a student lazy. When working with clients in the real world, the builder/designer needs the ability to draw and not rely on CAD systems.

Unfortunately, I never completed the course, mainly because of the time it took drawing. But I would like to see if they have changed. If so, I would like to complete the course.

Regards,
Jeff Sharpe
jsharpe@nortel.ca
Posted: 1997/01/16

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I graduated in 1990, after Five years and yes got an extension of hard work. Was it worth it you BET!!! all the best things in life take time are and hard..

I now have a complete education and understanding and can sit down with a designer or engineer and discuss what I learned, know and understand about boats. Not only has this increased my Marine education level, but has assisted me in various purchases, reviewing Surveys and Lots more.

If you Love Boats, the Water and it is in your Blood, and yes must MAKE the Time the Course is well worth the Price.

There is another Course I think in Maine.,, But feel the Westlawn course is a start and can carry credits over into other courses leading to Naval Architects degree.

Email me if you have any questions... LARRY

Primestar5 (primestar5@aol.com)
Posted: 1997/01/17

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I started the course about 4.5 years ago. I never finished the first half. I was very disappointed by their lack of communication skills. I was a computer systems engineer and quite capable of expressing and understanding complex subjects. I would write detailed questions and get answers like "no". Their communication with me was terse to the point of non-existence. They wanted me to call
them during their office hours. I'm sorry, but if you are going to advertise nationally for a course which people will be doing in their spare time, you must be prepared to either man the phones during evening hours or learn to write. I expect a teacher to communicate with an interested student. In addition, I was travelling all over the world. It was not possible to tote my drafting stuff with me everywhere I went, but I had access to PCs or my laptop everywhere I went. I asked them about using CAD and they said to forget
it. I did well in as much as I stuck to it, and learned some things, but for the most part I feel like I flushed $1800 down the toilet. Nearly all of what I did learn, I learned from their books, and you can learn the same thing from the Hamblin book for about $30.

Brian M. Godfrey
wildbird@pacifier.com
Posted: 1997/01/25

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Hi, I am considering the Westlawn Yacht Design mail course.

I am a graduate of the Westlawn course and I can tell you after more than 20 years in business that it is a very good course. Having said that let me list some of it's short comings. It does not give you a degree in Naval Architecture, some of it is very conservative, you should go on to do an apprenticeship of some sort with a design firm and/or a builder. Let me finish by saying that THE FINEST DESIGNERS ARE ON THE BOARD OF DIRECTORS OR ARE GRADUATES OF THE COURSE. It is a truly great organization and the only one of it's kind that I know of. I assume it is no less after all these years.

Pat Bray (brayacht@deepcove.com)
Posted: 1996/06/30

<snip>

I am a Westlawn student, taking the course out of interest. I will likely not complete the courese in 5 or 6 years, if ever. Here are my
answers to your questions.

1) what subjects are covered?

The course comprises two "terms", each comprising two "modules". The first module covers the principles of small craft naval architecture: Intro, Math, Hydrostatics, resistance, stability & marine drafting. The second module covers boat and yacht design: exterior, interior, high speed power boats, Sailboats, multi-hulls. The third module is on construction: wood, fiberglass, aluminum,
CAD. The fourth module covers systems engineering: engines, props, electrical, specifications, professional practices.

2) what is the balance between sail/power, commercial (ship) /yacht design?

It is a *pleasure yacht* design course, with a balance between sail and power. While the principles apply to ships, they are not covered.

3) how about a sample portion of a lesson for evaluation?

Nope, copyright. But, I will describe one.

Each lesson has a lesson book, some are thin and some up to 60 pages. They are photocopied and not too professionally laid out, but the content is reasonably good. I have encountered numerous errors that might cause some persons some additional head-scratching, but none very serious. The books are loose-leaf punched for 3-hole binders.

Also, each lesson has a set of instructions, to which is appended more lesson material. To me, it looks like the course was rather light in some areas, so somebody beefed it up with the additional notes, rather than editing the lesson books. This is a bit Mickey-Mouse,
but like a lot of correspondence courses, you get out what you put in, not what some glossy book spoon-feeds.

Each lesson concludes with a couple of dozen questions and some drawing assignments. I find these "assignments" cover the material
well. The drawing (for me anyway) takes the most time. The questions are mostly GIGO, but a few require some actual thought. But, heck, most of my college courses were no better (BTW, I was educated in Canada, not Asia).

Assignments are sent in for grading. You can also send in any questions you have on any topic related to the lesson. You are assigned a mentor, so you have a real live person with whom to build a relationship (mine is Emmanuel, who is a N.A. according to his card). He grades the papers, marks up the drawings, answers the questions and sends the whole lot back.

Every few lessons, there is a review lesson and at the end of each module there is a thorough design practicum to draw out all the points they made to that point.

Overall, Westlawn is less "slick" than ICS (I hold several diplomas from them so I am qualified to say), but they take the same approach and do so in what I judge to be a professional manner.

4) Anyone out there that has completed at least part of the course?

I am on lesson 4 now, but am poking along. I travel about 1/2 my working time and don't have much chance to work on this (excuses!).

5) what knowledge base is assumed by the course? addition? differential calculus? the ability to recognize a screwdriver or a mech Eng. PHD?

None. I am a former CPS boating instructor and have completed numerous CPS courses, many of which overlap the Westlawn course a bit. Still, I think that anyone who can read can figure this course out. Example: There is a basic course on math, from +-*/, to equations (no kidding).

Somebody who had no previous experience with boats (say who had never read Cruising World or MB&S) might have some terminology problems, but they would be slight.

<snip>

In summary, if you are a professional in any field, or a recent student, you will find the course material a bit poorly presented, but the content okay. If you are employed in a marine industry, you will feel that some of the material is a bit light, as it attempts to take the student from ground zero in each area.

I never plan to work at this, but from my limited experience, I would say that the course is designed to turn out a student with both knowledge and ability, not just booklearnin'). I have a friend in Thailand who is further along the course than I am. He works for a very famous name boat builder. He tells me that he enjoys the course and finds it challenging at times. He also finds it is time consuming. If I told you the company name and what he does, you would be impressed that he is following the course.

The cost is a bit steep for me as I am in Singapore (but actually it is relatively cheap, given the amount of material, postage, etc.)

You pay for the first term, but receive the two modules one at a time. When completed, you pay for and receive the rest likewise.

Another expense is equipment. You have to buy a bunch of stuff like a planimeter, drawing equipment, drafting board, splines * weights. The good news is that Westlawn will have this stuff drop-shipped to you from some outfit they have a contract with or somesuch, and the prices are reasonable. In my case, they saved me $$$ here, as the prices for such things in Asia are terrible, when they can be found.

Finally, Westlawn is on the internet. They have asked me to minimize my use of email to them, so I will not give out their address.

I hope this helps you and the others who have posed these questions. BTW I responded to a similar request some time ago in this news group (sigh ;->)

Maurice
from the land of endless summer
Maurice Nunas
Posted: 1995/04/22

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I saw a thread here last week sometime regarding the yacht design course that Westlawn offers and am curious if this is the only option for someone interested in naval architecture as a career. There seems to be very little offered by universities in the Puget Sound where I live (other than a few courses inside a mechanical engineering degree). Any insight, please post to newsgroup.

Okay, as a onetime engineering student who wound up as a boatbuilder, I will categorically state that if you want to be a naval architect/marine engineer (and the two are not separable) Westlawn ain't gonna cut it. It's for hobbyists.

A real school of Naval Architecture? Try Webb Institute (www.webb-institute.edu), MIT Ocean Engineering Dept.(www.mit.edu) or
the University of Michigan (www.engin.umich.edu/ ) Take a look at the degree requirements-not for the faint of heart or mathematically challenged.

On the other hand; if you can make it through to an NA/ME's degree, well, there's not a whole lot in engineering you can't take on. NAs have, besides boat and ship design, done significant work in biomedical engineering (insulin pumps), aerospace (the Apollo heat shield, among other things) and electronic engineering (look at the people who designed your marine electronics and where they were educated). And that's just what's caught my eye. I am sure there is more, much more.

There are a few real NAs who post on this group and my hat's off to them.

Good Luck
J.F. Milliken, Boatbuilder
Cape Cod
Posted: 1998/05/21

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If you want to design yachts I'm not sure the four year college approach will really do it. Most ignore yachts entirely. You might also want to consider the Landing Boat School in Kennebunkport, Maine which has a residential course in yacht design. Our school allows residential students and a summer internship but concentrates on being a world wide correspondence course.
Correct: in the US there is a difference between naval Architecture and Yacht Design. You will not learn much about small craft design at MIT, check Westlawn, Mac Naughton etc. for small boats (up to 100'). A background in engineering is almost a must even for yacht design.

Jacques Mertens - Boat Plans OnLine
http://bateau.com
Posted: 1998/05/26

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Correct: in the US there is a difference between naval Architecture and Yacht Design. You will not learn much about small craft design at MIT, check Westlawn, Mac Naughton etc. for small boats (up to 100'). A background in engineering is almost a must even for yacht design.

It is true that not much yacht design is taught at the naval arch colleges. But many of the top yacht designers are four-year naval arch
grads!

Paul H. Miller
Posted: 1998/06/02

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Would like to hear opinions (both on the group, and privately via email if you would rather) about the Westlawn Yacht Design Course. Does it achieve the goal of teaching one to design sub-50 ft boats of commercial quality?

15-20 hrs per week for 4 years is a significant commitment, and I don't mind the work if the end result justifies it. And I do realize that training is no substitute for experience, but is it a good step up? Or would I be better off trying to find a mechanical engineering or fluid dynamics program at a local university? I've got a 10-year old, never used B.S. in physics / aeronautics, if it matters (I develop software for a living).

TIA,
dave.

Westlawn is excellent and very well regarded in the industry but with your background, I would go for mechanical engineering. I find Westlawn a little weak in the field of CAD modeling and the math side of designing. Yacht design is becoming more complex and the best designs are now created by teams made of designers and structural engineers. For wooden boats, one could use rule of thumbs but to design for composites (99% of all current boats), engineering skills are required. Just an idea: get a book like Larsson's and the demo of Rhino at mcneel.com and play with it. Design a boat and try to work your way through the theory in the book with a spreadsheet program and Rhino. Calculate the scantlings and you'll see what I mean . . .

PS: Evan, why don't you tell him?

Jacques Mertens
Boat Plans OnLine
http://www.bateau.com
Posted: 2000/02/06

big thanks to you Jeff. All these informations are really helpfull for me
Thanks michal

[edneu]

On several of the posts here people stated that Westlawn requires you to pay for the entire course up front. Westlawn has divided the course into four modules, you can pay $450 and them make payments of $150 until you pay for the module (10 months). So the cost is $1950 per module (USD) and the entire course would be $7800

I don't know much about YDS or their payment scheme, but I just thought I would provide this information for anyone considering Westlawn and concerned about the cost.

Additionally , Westlawn provides the texts and I beleve YDS has the student purchase design books (Skene's etc). I am certian that anyone with an interest in Yacht Design would purchase these books anyway, but you could get through Westlawn without buying them.

My $.02

Just remember though that the number of new yacht designers that the economy can use is probably on the order of a dozen or less per year.

There are more students than that in the Landing School alone, much less Westlawn, and then there are grads of university programs, and self-taught people (Bob Perry, for example).

Most Westlawn graduates I know have never had a single job or design commission - the field of yacht design is just too small and competitive. Think about the number of custom boats you have seen, or the number of home built boats you have seen or whatever. Consider too the competition - some designers are trying to sell plan sets for large yachts for under $1,000 - how many of those can you sell in a year?

You really have to have something special to offer the field that is compelling enough to make you competitive, and you should be able to say exactly what it is now - otherwise you simply won't make it.

Your first task is to explain to yourself exactly why anyone should buy a boat design from you as opposed to some other Westlawn or whatever grad. It had better be a lot more than you completed a training program - so did everyone else.

[ErikG]

Most of the people that study yacht design might work with other yacht related work and not do design per se. Also I think that if you live in countries where the design activity are relatively high, the best way would be to work extra for an existing designer doing detailed technical drawings and assisting with cad work.

A lot of the older designers I have talked to still dont use cad at all, but most think they would benefit if they were to use it, so helping out with cad drawings or transferring a handdrawn design to computer could be a great first step into the biz.

by graduating at westlawn, what type of degree i get and in what? is it a B.S. in marine Engineering? please email answer to gonzalee@fit.edu

Westlawn does not grant a degree.

[Ocean Breeze 18]

Michal,

I started the course in 1974 and never finished it due to lack of money and finishing my BSEE degree. The course is worth it. The pen and ink drawings are what yacht design is all about, as you are designing graceful objects that will be around for 30 to 50 years if they are pleasing to the eye. I ended up using the calculations in Skenes elements of yacht design and wrote the fortran programs for taylor series, stability and so on and wrote the fortran program to calculate the 1/4 ton international IOR racers. Since I was in engineering school at the time I had free access to a IBM 1403 computer at the college. By the way all the mathmetics does is give you a real feel for the reality of how the boat will float on her waterline and some feeling for its stability.
You should really take courses in strength of materials, statics and dynamics in college to really figure out what is actually going on.

I designed and built molds for an 23 sailboat and an 18 foot sailboat. I built 10 of the 18 foot sailboats. Needless to say I never made any money off of the sailboat business
but it has been more fufulling than running an electrical contracting business, designing weapon systems, military simulators, Nuclear Powerplants or Space Shuttles.

Larry