Hello & Westlawn vs YDS

[luckettg]

You know that comment about not having degrees rang my memory (usually like a cracked bell). I don't think George Washington Carver even had a high school degree, and look at what he accomplished. Still, your point is well taken. I expect to learn more about small boats and craftmanship and building from places like YDS or Westlawn, which is all I want. I would never expect those credentials to be the equivilent of an engineering education from a university. I think if someone wants an education in boat design or marine engineering, they should go to a full blown university and not try taking shortcuts...which would not educate them properly. On the other hand, if they already have that or don't plan to do more than build small boats for themselves or a few customers, then YDS or Westlawn should be a good place to learn from. I know I am rambling, but hope the point is made.
Thanks,
Greg Luckett

[Willallison]

Chandler - what absolute clap trap! The yacht designing fraternity is littered with highly regarded designers with little or no formal education, many of whom would be capable of teaching others. I know nothing of YDS, having chosen at the outset to do the Westlawn course because of its widespread industry acceptance. But I can say that all of the Westlawn instructors that I've dealt with have been both knowledgeable and proffessional.

Greg - same comment goes to your absurd remark. I've spent 5 years and heavens knows how many thousands of hours doing Westlawn. I would suggest that the time spent is at least equivalent to that spent doing a full-time 1 year course at the Landing School. Not to take anything away from that course of course - it is highly regarded also.

[luckettg]

Willallison,
LOL....you are a funny guy! Spent a lot of money for that education, right? Must defend that decision, right? My remark about engineering education is right on the mark. Your response is very much like someone defending a religion or faith. Sorry if I offended you with my opinion, which I believe is valid. Would you mind sharing some facts that might add validity to your argument?

If and when you actually go to a university and get an engineering degree you will learn what I am talking about. Until then, thanks for sharing your opinion and just being you. Please let me know how your career goes, and I really do hope it goes well for you.
Greg Luckett

[westlawn5554X]

Originally Posted by chandler

Bobo

I ordered the first lesson from YDS and found it so frivolous I never went back.
The book list was very imformative, however I was immediately disappointed when Tom stated " do not buy or read Gerrs elements of yacht strength".
What kind of statement is that from an educator?

I am surprise YDS actually specified That Gerrs element of yacht strength should not be purchase. I have bought and read the book (Still reading) found that it actually vital the nearest thing to a textbook within the industry.

Of course there are other great books avaliable but you would think Gerrs title cover alot of stuff from nature of boat and propellar. Now I am sure I need a signature copies for all his book.

[Willallison]

I don't recall claiming that anyone out of Westlawn has an engineering degree.
I don't need to justify the money I've spent at Westlawn to anyone but myself - well, maybe to the wife! . If I felt that it had been money wasted, believe me I would be shouting it loudly from the tree tops.
I help to run a family owned and operated laboratory. I've seen my share of people come thru the door, waving their university degrees about, with some suggestion that it proves that they are capable laboratory workers. Generally they aren't. I've had the pleasure of working with a few that are, but just as many who's qualifications have come from supposed 'lesser' institutions.
I don't expect to change your opinion on the matter, but if you want 'facts' take a waddle over to the Westalwn website and have a look at the list of designers who have a Westlawn qualification....

[Raggi_Thor]

Bobo and Student, I think Tom is partially right. Both Gerr's book and Eliasson & co are not very good as an introduction to understanding boat strength.
Maybe some basic engineering knowledge and for example, DNV's rules will give more understanding. For small boats, it's always (almost :-) local stiffness (panel stiffness) that is the dimensioning factor. That's not always clear in those books.

[luckettg]

Originally Posted by Willallison

I don't recall claiming that anyone out of Westlawn has an engineering degree. .......
I help to run a family owned and operated laboratory. ........I don't expect to change your opinion on the matter, but if you want 'facts' take a waddle over to the Westalwn website and have a look at the list of designers who have a Westlawn qualification....

Will,
I am surprised that no one from Westlawn has an engineering degree, especially since I recall there were at least students with prior engineering degrees.
What sort of laboratory?
I have previously looked at Westlawn's alumni list and it is impressive. However there is a saying, "old wind does not fill new sails". In the USA there is a movement for having credentials and professional engineering (PE) credentials especially. It is only a matter of time before non-credentialed designers are forced out by the insurance companies or the university lobbyist pushing for "must have" university degrees. Like it or not (I don't) this is the direction of the future. Westlawn and YDS cannot help with this problem...at least not much. That is just my opinion, but I doubt it is mine alone.
Greg Luckett

[westlawn5554X]

One thing I think westland.edu is awkward is I feel so alone in the forum, they dont have a rooster for who currently present in the forum and most dont contribute in posting, maybe they're busy bunch of student I have seen. Or they are all sitting and posting at this boat design forum...?

I dont know if McNaughton have a forum for their student...

Edit: Opps... I mean I can see the rooster of the student but cant see who logged onto the forum at the same time with me. Must be my english again.

[chandler]

willallison,
I'm not questioning the ability of undegreed individuals of being able to design boats, I've been in the process of designing my boat for a couple of years, several revisions and several family commitments tend to slow down the design.
I lofted the design last fall and then scrapped the design and started over.
I'll be ready to loft again in a couple of weeks, however I plan to send the lines to some pros from this forum to find out if it's worth doing.
My concern is that people are spending good money on correspondance courses from unqualified instructors. I wouldn't pay the tuition and expenses of college for my children at a university if the the instuctors could only show a high school diploma. ****..that's all I have , however I have 30 years experience doing what I do, I'd be more than happy to take on an apprentice and teach them all I know, but I would never pretend to open a school for profit!
Raggi,
How you been? How's the course going? I don't mean to rag on YDS, I guess it just wasn't for me. Has anyone actually graduated from the course?
The gerr mcnaughton scantling debate really bugs me. I have both, toms 10 page pamphlet and gerrs 200 something page book, both for about the same price. Thats my rant..
Chandler

[Raggi_Thor]

Chandler, I am too busy with work to do much with the course.
It's a pity, because I think the course will teach me much about small boats and sailing boats that we didn't learn at university.

[dgerr]

Some of the comments in this thread are a bit mystifying to me given the information about Westlawn posted to the Education Forum over the past couple of years.

For over three-quarters of a century, Westlawn has trained (and continues to train) more practicing small-craft designers than any other several schools in the world combined. Of course, many of our distinguished alumni go back quite a few years, both because Westlawn has been around for so long and because it takes years to reach the stage in someone’s career where you are, well, “distinguished.”

This said, Westlawn continues to place its alumni in the boating industry now. Westlawn documents this on our website with names, fact, and photos, and we post this information to the boatdesign.net Education Forum. The current and ongoing record of success of Westlawn alumni is covered extensively in pervious posts here, particularly at:

Westlawn Alumni are Everywhere
Westlawn Alumni Are Everywhere

Westlawn Featured in Soundings Trade Only - Nov. 2005
Westlawn Featured in Soundings Trade Only - Nov. 2005

Over the past year, there have been a lot of exciting things going on at Westlawn:
http://boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?t=8894

Explore the Westlawn website at:

http://www.westlawn.edu/

to learn more about Westlawn.

We also hope you will enter your designs in the Westlawn/Cruising World/Island Packet Yachts Design Competition posted at:

Westlawn & Cruising World Announce a New Design Competition

Dave Gerr
Director
Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology

[luckettg]

Dave,
How is Westlawn dealing with the push by the Federal and State governments to insist on degreed engineers with PEs in just about all the design fields now? This ends up being an issue for getting liability insurance and also when in court and defending. Lawyers love it.

My guess is that the boat design firms must have at least one PE working for them, or they would have a very difficult time getting insured.
Thanks,
Greg Luckett

[nicotgr]

Originally Posted by chandler

Bobo

Nicotgr:
I ordered the first lesson from YDS and found it so frivolous I never went back.

I found it frivolous too...until I did it. This is one of the problems with distance learning. Unless you have some experience in learning you do not appreciate how much you can learn from "frivolous" lessons. In a college or university setting you do what they tell you to do, you often hate it, and you think it is frivolous but you are greatful later.

Originally Posted by chandler

The book list was very imformative, however I was immediately disappointed when Tom stated " do not buy or read Gerrs elements of yacht strength".

But why? If you think so highly of that book tell us why. If you deem Tom's statement inappropriate see below.

Originally Posted by chandler

What kind of statement is that from an educator?

It's exactly the statement that a responsible educator should make to his students, as long as it reflects his honest opinion. I have made similar statements many times in my professional career; my only regret is that I never had the opportunity to make them before a large audience so I could be challenged to prove my point.

Originally Posted by chandler

Personally I don't feel either of them have the credentials to be teaching yacht design or anything else.

But they ARE teaching Yacht Design and they ARE producing Yacht Designers.

Originally Posted by chandler

They don't have any degrees!

They don't have to. In this case lack of a degree does not mean inability to get a degree or lack of knowledge corresponding to a degree. It simply means lack of interest in getting a degree they don't need.

Originally Posted by chandler

Would you send your children to a university where the professors have no credentials?

With all due respect your argument is specious, and anyway, they do have credentials. YDS and Westlawn do not confer any kind of a degree. It's up to the market to decide what their student's diploma is worth.

Originally Posted by chandler

I also don't like McNaughtons designs and don't feel the ability to draw a steaming cup of coffee is all that important.

That's an entirely different matter but your likes and dislikes should not interfere with your ability to judge what a man is worth.

Chandler, I think you are a good man that will do well with any school you decide to attend, distance learning or otherwise. I urge you to give YDS a chance; It's the best value for the money these days.

Nicholas Cotzias

[luckettg]

For what its worth in this discussion, my grandfather was a civil engineer who specialized in highway bridge construction. He did not have a degree but learned his trade from other engineers teaching him and from doing the work. He built bridges and highways all over the country, including the original freeways in Los Angeles. Today (if he were still alive) he would not get the time of day from any firm doing similar work, yet alone a job doing the engineering. His son became a civil engineer via the US Army Corp of Engineers during WW2 and worked at this up into the 60s. He did not have a degree, yet he worked on the design for the door system on the moon rocket assembly building (still used today for the shuttles). Times have and are changing.
Greg Luckett

[dgerr]

This is a common misconception. There is no push by any state government to require PE licensure for yacht and boat designers. The Federal Government is not involved in this at all; it is not a Federal issue. In the small-craft industry, less than 2% of designers have PEs. Over 99% of all small-craft are and continue to be built from plans by designers without PEs, and by firms with no employees who are PEs. Think of any yacht-design firm and the chances are very high that there is no PE working in that office. This is even more the case for production boatbuilders. In fact, designers for such builders fall under the “corporate exemption.” No designers so employed need a PE (though none is required in any case). There is no insurance issue. Having been an expert witness in many cases over the years, I can tell you it is not an issue in litigation either.

The U.S. Coast Guard accepts plans for boats built by designers without a PE (the vast majority of boat designers) for review for commercial passenger vessels, and has specifically stated this is the case and has no intention of changing this policy. (You had better know your stuff and all the applicable regulations, of course, or your plans won’t pass.)

Misinformation about this issue is widespread and extensive.

Happily, Westlawn alumni don't get the time of day either; they work in the boating industry. See the list on Westlawn's website at:

Success Stories:
http://216.119.80.31/who/success.asp

and the the many other links listed on my post above.

Dave Gerr
Director
Westlawn Institute of Marine Technology