Hello & Westlawn vs YDS

[luckettg]

Do they teach critical analysis of logic and language at the Landing School too? Your opinion is what I was trying to understand....in other words, what you intended to communicate. You knew what you meant, but I was not sure. That being said, I think your analysis is too simplistic to arrive at the conclusion which you did, even if I agree with your conclusion, which I do.

How long have you been at the Landing School? I am hoping one of my sons or grand kids will want to go there someday. My older children have chosen other paths already.
Greg Luckett

[luckettg]

Originally Posted by Figgy

My point is that if your going to spend up to ten grand on schooling, why go to a .com. If you want, go to www.fivespeedkitty.com and send me the money, hell, I'll only charge you 5 grand. I'll give you a diploma in yacht design.
Go to a school thats known for producing quality. I'm not saying a .com isnt it, but I would be skeptical. I personally dont care, I'm going to The Landing School. It doesnt make me better than anyone, I just learn better in a classroom than on my own. I looked into both (Yds & West.) and found Westlawn to be better in MY opinion. I'm not trying to start a war, but like I said, "my two cents". Take it for what its worth.

I just noticed your comment about spending $10K for an education. That pays for, at the most, 2 semesters at most decent universities in the US.

Your first comment was meant to be funny, right? LOL.
Greg Luckett

[Figgy]

Originally Posted by luckettg

I just noticed your comment about spending $10K for an education. That pays for, at the most, 2 semesters at most decent universities in the US.

Your first comment was meant to be funny, right? LOL.
Greg Luckett

Westlawn is $8,800 tuition only. I based the number on that. The Landing School is more, and I think YDS is cheaper. You are correct, It isnt much at the University level, but the education is more.(@ a University)

This is my point, anyone can buy a .com for a few bucks, but an .edu is different.

From wikipedia:

Under the present system, only post-secondary institutions that are accredited by an agency on the U.S. Department of Education's list of nationally recognized accrediting agencies are eligible to apply for a .edu domain. Most such agencies accredit only US institutions, so very few non-US institutions qualify, and .edu remains almost exclusively a top-level domain of the United States.

Its all just food for thought.

[luckettg]

I wonder if .edu's can be purchased overseas where regulation is not well enforced, or is this strictly a US domain where it can be enforced?

I understand now what you were alluding to earlier. It is what I thought you probably intended to mean, but then I have been wrong before.

A year or so ago, when I thought I would really be able to retire, I signed up at YDS, paid the first class, gathered books and equipment, then did not do anything else. I have not heard a word from them questioning this lack of activity at all, which is sort of a mixed blessing thing. Any other school I have ever been involved with would at least drop me a letter, email, or phone call to check on my intentions.

When I have time to study again, I expect Westlawn will be my school of choice.
Greg Luckett

[Figgy]

Originally Posted by luckettg

I wonder if .edu's can be purchased overseas where regulation is not well enforced, or is this strictly a US domain where it can be enforced?

Strictly US.

I'm sorry for not being very clear about it all. It's too bad about not hearing from them, but it tells you something. I could've gotten over the .com thing, but if you look at the main page of his site, well he's a Jack of all trades. He's a boat broker, an art dealer, a printing company, ect. I'm not talking bad about the guy, but there is nothing qualifying him to be a "instructor" of yacht design. Where did HE graduate?
I'm sure I touched a few nerves with people, and I'm only trying to help, but let's not part ways with our money too quickly

[nicotgr]

Dear Figgy,

Having found that the nuggets of gold in this site are becoming increasingly lumps of fool’s gold I tried to stay away from it and, honestly, I tried to “unsubscribe” but this does not seem to be an option. You have to beg to be kicked out, which I do not intend to do. It is unfortunate and a weakness on my part but I keep coming back from time to time, and, as education in this country (USA) is of paramount interest to me, I came across your posts. I will come to the point shortly. Please have in mind that I do not intend to be offensive; simply I do not beat about the bush and I detest the way you treat YDS and Mr. MacNaughton. I am sure that Mr. MacNaughton can take care of himself and he does not need any advocates. However, being a weaker man than he is, and a one time student of YDS, I feel personally affronted by your remarks hence this response.

Before I proceed further, I have to most emphatically state that I am not in any way affiliated with Tom MacNaughton or his business. Although, as I mentioned already, I have been a student of YDS, “client” better describes my relationship with his business.

1. I have stated in a previous post that, in my (educated—I have been in the learning business for over 40 years) opinion, all the schools of distance learning mentioned in this or similar discussions can do an equally good job at training somebody to become a Yacht Designer, so there is no negative bias on my part. On the other hand, I have to admit that I think highly of Tom MacNaughton as a Yacht Designer and as a man. I like his designs, I like his artistry, I like his site, and I like his writings. Also, I would rather be on one of his designs in a storm than on any other by a contemporary designer. This last statement should not be taken as an expert opinion but rather as an affirmation of my positive bias.

2. In your latest post you comment in a negative way regarding omission of YDS to prod a mature man who did not follow through with his lesson. I wonder what your (and his) reaction would have been had the opposite taken place.

You find the “.com thing” objectionable but I cannot understand why. I am sure that acquisition of funds by macnaughtongroup.com is more transparent, clean, and honest than by most academic environments. Behind not for profit organizations are often vested economic and political interests and almost always LUST for power. I have been there and I know.

You call Tom MacNaughton a jack of all trades. Being a jack of all trades is not necessarily a bad thing but you use it in a negative way. Besides, Tom MacNaughton is not a jack of all trades; he is a Yacht Designer and a man of the sea. His brokerage disturbs you. Personally I would rather buy a used boat from somebody who has extensive experience in sailing, Yacht Design, surveying, boat repair, and boat building. Tom MacNaughton did not get into this business by accident. I know because I have read almost all of his writings. The “art dealer” and “printing company” is nonsense not deserving any comments.

3. Figgy, I hope you are still with me.

I quote from your message:

<<I'm not talking bad about the guy, but there is nothing qualifying him to be a "instructor" of Yacht Design. Where did HE graduate?
I'm sure I touched a few nerves with people, and I'm only trying to help, but let's not part ways with our money too quickly>>

I wholeheartedly agree with you that one should not part ways with one’s money too quickly but any semblance of agreement with you ends here.

Before I explain to you what qualifies Mr. MacNaughton to be an instructor I have to ask you this: What qualifies YOU to opine on who is qualified and who is not? What qualifies YOU to “help” others pursue a career? What is your background, what is your education, WHO ARE YOU? You use very strong words and I think you should have the essential pride to put your name under your demeaning remarks.

Where did he graduate? The short answer is Yacht Design Institute. The long answer is that he started at an early age sailing, designing, watching boatbuilding, then boatbuilding, then going through Yacht Design Institute, founded by Ted Brewer, then working for Mr. Brewer then going on his own. All this complemented by hard work, self education and a lot of TALENT plus a lot of sailing experience. In short, he did what most Yacht Designers have been doing throughout the centuries. I am sure this list is incomplete and maybe imprecise but you get the general idea. It should be noted at this point that the above is MY perception of a précis on Mr. MacNaughton’s pertinent biographical elements taken from his autobiographical note at his site. You can visit http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/tom.htm and form your own opinion.

4. So, as far as I am concerned, we have established that Mr. MacNaughton graduated from Yacht Design Institute. In addition, the fact that he was invested with the respect of Mr. Brewer, and that he served as his Chief Draftsman is enough evidence for me that at the time he terminated his association with Mr. Brewer he was highly qualified as a Yacht Designer. Now, after all these years of practical experience, of creative boat design, of publishing his scantling rules, of conceiving and implementing the YDS, you positively state that nothing qualifies him as an instructor? Given diligence, common sense, and talent—of which Mr. MacNaughton has plenty—I believe that he is eminently suited to be an instructor on Yacht Design. After all, I have been exposed to his tutorship and I am in a better position than you to judge him. And…Figgy; this is not my two cents.

I am in the hope that this message might help you see things in a better perspective.


Nicholas Cotzias

[luckettg]

Nicholas,
Well written reply, but perhaps one misconception. Being the "mature man" you refer to, it was not the lack of prodding from YDS that surprised me, but rather the lack of any curiosity as to what my intentions were. Anyone doing COIs via the net or correspondence had better not need prodding, and I never have responded well to being prodded in any activity which I partake.

I have spoken by phone with Tom, and have nothing but respect for him and his accomplishments. I cannot speak to how well he is as a teacher/instructor since I have not given him much of a chance to be one for me. Another point: being a subject matter expert does not necessarily imply that a person can teach the subject. Tom is undoubtedly a fine designer and a nice person. I may continue with YDS someday, but being an ABYC member, Westlawn gives me a nice discount, and is more proactive about teaching. One of the things I do like about YDS: paying as you go. Westlawn is definitely looking at students as a money pump. All this is moot for me until my work load decreases. Since I have paid for the first lesson from YDS I suppose I will finish and submit it eventually.

I agree completely that the .com vs the .edu really does not mean much with respect to either Westlawn or YDS. The approach each follows to teach design is very different and yet very similar.

Greg Luckett
PS. Gee, until now I did not think of myself as "mature"...

[luckettg]

Nicholas,
I just followed that link you provided to Tom's biog. with his pic. It is scary how much he and I look alike. I look forward to someday making a trip over his way and meeting him in person.
Greg Luckett

[Figgy]

Originally Posted by nicotgr

What qualifies YOU to opine on who is qualified and who is not? What qualifies YOU to “help” others pursue a career?

What qualifies me? Its my money. Thats what qualifies me. If I'm forking over thousands, I want to know what kind of education I'll get and who is teaching it. I don't think thats asking too much, is it?
I'm not helping others to pursue a career, I just threw out a tidbit of info for someone to chew on. Your getting way too pumped about this. I'm glad you got a good education and I hope your using it(are you?), but you need to calm down. Again, I'm not badmouthing the guy, but people need to ask questions. Its the smart thing to do.
I'll tell you what, I live about five hours away (per Mapquest), maby I'll think about taking a trip up there to see the operation, I would like to know how it works.

Originally Posted by nicotgr

What is your background,

I've been on boats since day 1.

Originally Posted by nicotgr

what is your education,

I'm not going to humor you with an answer to that question. Besides, it's nothing maritime related so its moot.

Originally Posted by nicotgr

WHO ARE YOU?

Chris Akerson
592 U.S. Rte 1
Scarborough Me.
04074

[nicotgr]

Originally Posted by Figgy

I'll tell you what, I live about five hours away (per Mapquest), maby I'll think about taking a trip up there to see the operation, I would like to know how it works.

A very good idea.

[nicotgr]

My apologies Greg for including you in my polemic; I should have left you out.

But,
Regarding this lack of curiosity on the part of YDS let’s not forget that this an open course with no deadlines, run essentially by one person. Some people might take a few months just to gather tools and materials (like me when I got my lesson # 1 in Greece) and even more to finish the lesson. At what point in time should the student be contacted?

It is unfortunate that Mr. MacNaughton, unlike his competitors, does not promote his school through this forum otherwise he might be available to answer questions.

The point you raise about expertise vis-a-vis teaching is a very valid one for which, unfortunately, I have no answer except to say that some people have a talent for teaching and some others do not. On the other hand teaching skills are not necessarily inherent; they can be learnt also. Your comment prompted me to search the Internet. You may like this site that touches on the subject:

http://www.oct.ca/publications/profe...1998/think.htm

Did I say “mature”? Oh no!! I meant to say “approaching maturity”. After all you are younger than I and I haven’t matured yet (to the chagrin of my wife).

Finish your lesson and send it in BEFORE you are satisfied with the results.

All the Best,

Nicholas Cotzias

[westlawn5554X]

No dateline? meaning homework can be submitted 10 years later? I am just curious what is the max. duration of not submitting homework before you are kick out of the program.

[luckettg]

Now there is a good question. I am wondering that too.....
Greg Luckett

[bobothehobo]

Hey Figgy if you are in Scarborough, ME you should check out The Landing School. I graduated from there in June, tough course for 1 year, but well worth it. I found the education invaluable, the instructors amazing, and when I originally went there my desire was to work at Sparkman & Stephens upon graduation. I graduated June 24th, I started work at S&S July 17th--I think that speaks volumes for the respect that program receives in the industry. If you want the quickest track to a career as a Yacht Designer it seems to me The Landing School is the best route. Of course you need to give up 14k and 10 months of employment....

[chandler]

Bobo
The landing school is without a doubt the best non university design, building, & marine systems school I know of. However isn't the tuition closer to 16k. I plan on enrolling in the systems course if my rich aunt dies or I win megabucks. Both of which might have to happen in order to attend a 12 month intensive education program like the landing school. I drive by the school everyday on my way to work in Kennebunkport to work on rich peoples homes. I rent in Lyman.
I understand there is also an excellent program in Eastport which is part of the now community (formerly tech) college system in Maine. Much more affordable tuition as well as affordable housing, and less demanding schedule.
Nicotgr:
I ordered the first lesson from YDS and found it so frivolous I never went back.
The book list was very imformative, however I was immediately disappointed when Tom stated " do not buy or read Gerrs elements of yacht strength".
What kind of statement is that from an educator?
Personally I don't feel either of them have the credentials to be teaching yacht design or anything else. They don't have any degrees!
Would you send your children to a university where the professors have no credentials?
I also don't like McNaughtons designs and don't feel the ability to draw a steaming cup of coffee is all that important.