Auto engine marinization

[tom kane]

hi Gonzo.No suggestion was made that marine engines used oxygen sensors,they are used to advantage in auto systems along with the latest Electronic Engine Management Systems.In the latest 2004 Product Bulletin that I have on the 8.1/DP -IGX
systems are explained well such as EVC/MC-Plug and go(option) which is claimed are based on the latest automotive technology,plus the extensive range of accessories.As a choice for myself dry exhaust insulated and water jacketed where appropriate gives the reliability of a motor car.tom kane

[Robbi]

Hi!

Interesting discussion you have here.

Here on the west coast in Finland they constantly marinize auto engines. Mostly the engines are diesels because of the very expensive gasoline.

Take a look at

http://www.netti.fi/~seppniem/introduction.html

Regards,

Robbi

[Danielsan]

I agree with Tom Kane, However changed the engine in a 325-525TDS engine got some more HP. I Think I will isolate exhaust manifold and wrap some stainless steel tubular construction between fiberglass isolation tissue and exhaust cooled by some fresh water. I think it will exchange enough heat to cool things down. The rest of the electonics an sensors will remain same as in the car. total cost around 2.000 USD, it's higher than estimated before because the use of an more recent engine with low milage. Now I still need to figure out drive and steering somebody has an idea. Thinking about some surface drive thing with conventional steering and maybe some trimming device?

Greetz

Danielsan

[Suede]

Hi,
The reason for wrapping your exhaust with insulation is to keep the gas as hot as possible on it´s way to the Turbo, if you cool it down the gas volume will be less and it will lower the effect of the turbo (oppsite to an intercooler where you want more gas into the engine). Maybe you can use a external water cooled "oil-cooler-type of element" to take care of the heat radiated from the exhaust and cool down your engine room.
You might also convert your alternator to external diods. It´s a lot more power needed to charge empty battries on a boat, and diods will heat up you alternator much more than it was designed for.
So your cooling issue starts after the gas exit the turbo...
You will find products and ideas if you search the net for the guy´s building extreme turbo cars and diy-aircrafts....
rgds
Olle

[gonzo]

What are you doing about the electrics and fuel system. Automotive electrics are not spark protected. Automotive fuel systems use a return line. Both are illegal and dangerous in a marine installation.

[Suede]

Most marine-alternators are modified auto-industy units, it´s still an open unit for air-cooling...so it will most likely produce as much sparks as in a car. Better cooling, wireing and bearings seems to be the main mods, sometimes isolating terminals for external regulators, not using engine ground.
I don´t se why car electrics should produce more sparks....being stuck in a traffic-jam might then be expose you to high risk for cars going up in smoke...or....
overall I think a lot of boat manufactors have a long way to go before the reach the installationstandards of the car industry.....

Illegal or not, but why should it be more danger to run two fuel lines instead of one....if it´s ok to have two or more main tanks and one day tank....fuel lines i between and more pumps....
But your right....doing this type of installation is not acceptable for a boat yard or professional shop, it´s a d.i.y-project....and you must be aware of the risk....but still interesting..

rgds
Olle

[Corpus Skipper]

Most marine-alternators are modified auto-industy units, it´s still an open unit for air-cooling...so it will most likely produce as much sparks as in a car. Better cooling, wireing and bearings seems to be the main mods, sometimes isolating terminals for external regulators, not using engine ground.

They also have flame screens over the air holes.

[gonzo]

Marine alternators have screens to make them spark proof, just like and old miner's lantern. Automotive fuel systems have a return fuel line that works in conjunction with a pressurized fuel tank and a fume return tank. Return lines are dangerous and illegal in marine applications. Marine fuel systems have only one feed line and a fuel/vapor separator. I think it is irresponsible to promote something that endagers other people's lives. An exploding boat can do a lot of damage.

[tom kane]

If you build your boat so that there is no chance of any fuel vapours occuring within
the hull of your boat you should not need all of the patch-up methods now applied to a supposedly legal boat systems.Just because there are laws on this matter does not mean there is no better way to do the job, in a safe and good engineering approach.
Why should we not be entitled to the best safety approach for our boats?tom kane.

[tom kane]

If you build your boat so that there is no chance of any fuel vapours occuring within
the hull of your boat you should not need all of the patch-up methods now applied to a supposedly legal boat systems.Just because there are laws on this matter does not mean there is no better way to do the job, in a safe and good engineering approach.
Why should we not be entitled to the best safety approach for our boats?tom kane.

[gonzo]

Tom Kane:
The rules have a basis on research and technology. If you know of anything better, please share it with us. Seems like your post are always criticizing existing standards. However, you never offer any better solution. There is no "patches" in marine engines. It is a different system. I think your comments are based on ignorance and arrogance. Also, they may encourage people to use installations that are dangerous and illegal. Are you willing to commit yourself in writing for a different method? I put all my warranties in a contract form which makes me liable.

[Danielsan]

Hi guys,
Hope you won't get into a fight outhere? :-)) I agree there is a diff. between marine and automotive apps. But there is also a commercial issue. Why is it that even the most ordinary pieces (f.e. rudder) cost a 4 fold of designing one myself and getting it done by a machining company and with all respect, the thing I've on paper does like more robust than the one I can buy off the shelve. Is it design cost (I don't count that fo myself) or is it just a commercial issue. Concerning the Car engine I still think there is no probl with it. The only thing I would change is the alternator, because the need of more power, so the thing I will do is getting myself a marine one. As it's a diesel engine there should be nothing more to change (stater engine). A good forced ventilation and I think it wil get safe down there.
There is another thing to know, I think the legislation in Europe and the States is some more diff. Because f.e. feul return lines are allowed in our boats, the fill-up systems come along with that inlet.

Greetz,

Danielsan

[tom kane]

If you have not already read the Thread,Safe Remote Fuel System for boats,Gonzo,in Open Discussion,along with the description and the image of the same name in the tom kane photo gallery,it may be of interest.It is open for constructive critisism.the double posts were not intended,the Edit Option was not available.Patch-up in my English-American Dictionary means..to bring(a quarrel,dispute,etc)to an end.thanks tom kane.

[PAR]

Tom Kane . . . "If you build your boat so that there is no chance of any fuel vapors occurring within
the hull of your boat you should not need all of the patch-up methods now applied to a supposedly legal boat systems."

Clearly, some talk out their butt's and others pass the regulations and requirements as routine for a living. Maybe down in the other half of the world, it's not necessary to keep from blowing yourself or friend to hell in a hand basket, but in the real world (yes, you MUST compare to the USA regs) you have to muster at least an attempt to stabilize the results of your actions, if not be responsible for them out right.

I've just settled this with a side bet on another forum. I called GM and asked about the marine engines they build for many (damn near all) the boat engine builders. The question was, "What's the difference with the engines you supply to marine applications, compared to the stuff you bolt into automotive applications."

The list of parts was quite long and very different from the stuff you get from the engine bay of a Buick. The USCG regulations aside, the motors produced by GM (the industry leader) were much more robust, to keep it short. Forged parts through out the application. Cast pistons for the most part (high output not included), but little else was the same. Not even a good automotive short block, from the same manufacture would muster up.

Mercruiser buys their engines from GM, who builds them to spec. The engines show up on their doorstep with bullet proof parts (race breeding) and accept the bolt on stuff from other suppliers and still carry a GM warranty! Why? They build a 400 HP engine and stick a 220 HP (to Mercruiser's specs of course) cam in it . . .

Tom Kane's idea of "fuel vapors occurring . . ." is an old idea and has been well juiced by performance users for many decades. Placing the air intake outside of the "box" for a fresh air charge (the real reason for such changes) will allow you to forgo vent loops and shaft seals in the carb (anyone still using one is going to lose the race) but this does not negate the needs of spark/flame/vapor proofing and other, related improvements to fuel delivery. This is dependant on the seal being below the base of the carb. Most don't do this and take their chances, also negating any added benefits of the denser air charge, as the vents, and breather holes must be of the same pressure, or the increased air charge is worthless.

This is the country of standard. This is where most boats are sold. The USA is where most boats are raced. This is the place where you must account for yourself. This IS the place where you CAN account for yourself. WE repeatedly come up with new ways, ideas and standards to compete with. Those that can't keep up, usually just bitch . . .

[Danielsan]

PAR,
are you one of the others that pass the regulations and requirements as routine for a living or do you also have some constructive ideas for someone who thinks pricing a boat for 150.000USD/3ft (in Eurpope) is way to much?
We don't want to innovate, we just want to have another approach on the things. Can you tell me why a car engine wouldn't use flame proof equipement. If there are none then we just change them. What fumes does a Diesel engine produce in the motor compartment besides the oil vapour outlet that comes back into the air inlet? A spark free alternator and starter can be found off the shelve. What's more?

I think this is a forum so people can help other people find solutions or making up ideas, good or bad.

Just a last thing: You guys make the most boats, engines, standards,etc,....
But also the most fake weapons of mass destruction reports!

Just know the Space Shuttle has a heatshield made of 32.000 little ceramic tiles none of the 32.000 has exactly the same shape, so the crew can't take some spare parts just in case there would be one ore more lost in space... They got fried!!! Nice standards
or was it just a commercial issue?

Hope not offending you people over there on the other half of the world

Daniel Peeters