Yanmar - How long should it take for oil pressure to come up from a cold start?

[captim]

I was given the Cente-R -rated drive coupling for my transmissions. I have twin disc 2.05:1 boxes (5075-A) Yanmar told me the coupling I got was the heavy duty "expensive" one. I have used them before. Vulcan in Sydney also manufacture another similar style of coupling which is real good also. There is however a new type which uses a clear/light coloured silicon/rubber type material comparred to the black rubber they used to use. its not as easy to see the wear now though as its light coloured which makes the dust hard to see in a clean engine room.
I will check the number for you and get it to you.
What trans are ou running?? I had ZF and they do have a rattle compared to the twin disc's

[Frosty]

Hello Captim

I don't know what coupling I have, I took it out 4 years ago and I now just live with the prob. However I have just made a new contact in Yanmar who is showing real concern.

I have the ZF/Hurth 63A down 8 degree 2.5:1 ratio.

The problem with Yanmar is different people say different things like oh yes thats normal then another guy will say geez that bizarre.

I think I might have just managed to get high enough up the slippery chain to find a guy that can do something, 7 year old engines now 156 hours only.

I could do with talking to that guy you know on drive plate issues. You see this is the prob, in 7 year Ive not gotten to talk to some one that knows anything.

If the crank shudders to a stop I cant imagine anything that will stop the gear train from bouncing backwards and forwards with it, as it is bolted direct. Ok the drive plate may cushion drive but that would be difficult to cure.
You had the rattle too on your ZF's?

This may be a ZF issue but no one at Yanmar has figured that yet.

I would have thought a heavier fly wheel would help to absorb the tortional "forces"!!

You have bought marine engines and are a much better but very heavy motor. The 6 Lp is half a Toyota landcruiser motor, infact I think the only engine from the auto market that Yanmar uses. They did'nt tell me that when I bought them.

I bought these because they are light, so light you can get hold of them and shake them around to line the mount holes up,--thats light for 250HP

[TollyWally]

Frosty,
By coincidence the topic of Accusumps just popped up on another site I frequent. It is mostly about ultra high perormance drag boats etc. Most of the guys there are quite knowledgable and some are downright brilliant on the minutia of internal combustion. This thread just started but if it gathers steam it might be worth your while to eavesdrop a bit.

http://www.performanceboats.com/html...ad.php?t=44957

On a slightly different note 10 or 15 years back we toured the local Coast Guard cutter in Homer. Sort of a know your enemy tour. They kept the oil circulating through the engines and through a warming tank. The idea being they could fire up and go out and hassle some poor fisherman at a moments notice. For a while the commander would run the cutter in a text book zig zag torpedo avoidance pattern. He gave that up after wrapping his wheels in the steel cables securing some outside setnet buoys. Good times.

[Frosty]

Thats right wally the Accusump is meant to substitute oil pump pressure temporarily due to forces acting on the engine that will starve the pump of supply. Such as high speed cornering or the engine being subject to G' forces.

I am not suffering such forces, just need to fill the filter and a very simple prelube will sufice.

The tank system and valves would mean I had the choice of filling the tank at start up or before shut down, I would have total control with a manually operated electric valve, totaly eradicating the complications of restricting orifice or slow fill valves.

In other words turn the valve off after start (tank empty) run the engine at 2000RPM before turning off , do anyway to cool turbo's then flick the switch on and off and slowly fill the tank. Turn off switch and go home.

The valve could be fitted to the engine meaning failure of any pipe etc would be irrelevant.

[TollyWally]

I don't have a problem with self engineered solutions. In fact sometime I specialize in them. I just remembered it being mentioned in this thread and then saw it posted over there tonight. If those guys get into it there coud be all kinds of fascinating tidbits. I'd like to see pics of whatever you might end up doing.

[Frosty]

Wally, Sometimes I don't understand people , you know every thing on this planet was self engineered at one time.

The space shuttle was'nt a bought one its cocked together buy guys that have never been to space!!!! they made everything them selves. Seems to work ok

Formula 1 racing is all new, --new stuff every year that no one has seen before.
Im quite proud of the fact that I made my own surface drives and have been congratulated for a simple system. they work perfectly and If I was offered Arnesons for free I would'nt take them.

I think I can make up a pre lube accumulator tank, its not leaving the planet or anything.

Infact the prelube may very well be one guys home made kit nicely packaged with pipes and fittings. My tanks are amazingly the same size and shape??????

It hard to imagine how you could get this simple system wrong so that it wouldnt work.

Ille take some pics.

[TollyWally]

I often think the same way as you. What one man can make, so can another.

20 years back a company called North American Jet developed what they called the tractor jet for seine skiffs. It was a low pressure high volume pump in contrast to the normal high pressure low volume pumps used in faster jet boats.

It was pretty successful and lives on in several different variations. The first ones displayed at the fisherman conventions were obviously shop built rather crude affairs. You could see exactly how they were put together. An advanced apprentice machinest could make one himself by copying their model. The next year things were much more slick and it wasn't nearly as obvious how it all went together. And so on until it was a manufactured, designed, product mysteriously shrouded with streamlined castings etc. that did not look at all like the sort of thing a bright guy could cobble together.

I'd love to have the details of your surface drives. It's the sort of thing I'd like to make someday but probably would never get around to it. Still the ability would be fascinating. I can understand if you wanted to keep the details a secret though.

I also have a fetish for a self built controllable pitch propellor set up. An old friend was the engineer on an old research boat for the local university. About 80 feet or so built in the late 50's would be my guess. It had a controllable pitch set up that he raved about. He had been a machinest in a previous life and his old man was a naval architect who came up the hard way. He had been a draftsman and then went to Westlawn. I remember thumbing through his textbooks when I was a kid. The son said on more than one occasion he could make one. Sadly he passed away a year or so in his mid 50's.

I find myself rambling, I will bring this to a close. I look forward to seeing the fruits of your labors.

[murdomack]

Frosty,

Just reading your chat with Tolly Wally, where you say that the engine runs and the tanks (bottles) are empty then you rev up and refill them before shutting down.

Will adding all that extra oil to the engine and leaving it in while it is running be an issue? Maybe something else to think about.


Yellowjacket,

The pre-loaded NRV would work fine for a fill line, but it would only need a spec of contaminant on the face and it would backflow. Using a mini-bore solenoid ball valve operated by the pressure switch would be more quaranteed to seal every time, adding a cheap NRV to this would help it capture the maximum oil pressure before it shut.

Anyway, I think Frosty is looking for a simple system to start with. He can add goodies as he wants when he knows that it works.

[Frosty]

Originally Posted by murdomack

Frosty,
Will adding all that extra oil to the engine and leaving it in while it is running be an issue? Maybe something else to think about.



Anyway, I think Frosty is looking for a simple system to start with. He can add goodies as he wants when he knows that it works.

Damn Murdo , do you notice everything . I knew that but I thought I could get away with it. Its a big motor taking 11 liters. I usually run right on full anyway so if the bottle was under charge I think I would still be well in dip stick ok bit.

Same with yellowbutts comment about the air pocket in the filter Yes yes your right it would, Cavitation of an oil pump is bearing destroying but as it is just momentary I don't think its a prob.

This size of tank that I am using is exactly the size that pre lube recommended to me --size F it is 4 Quarts (American measure) it will only fill half of that so thats 1/2 a gallon. As you say.

However I am under the impression that the resistance of the 3/8 fittings, pipe, and valve as well will ensure that the pressure in the engine will need at least 15 PSI to push oil into the tank.

Which is more than I have at present --which is zero for 12 seconds.

Hoping for an E mail off Yanmar tomorrow from an enthusiastic guy until he is told to drop it by his superiors. Seems to be what normally happens.

They all start of sympathetic and helpful.

Hoping Captim can give me his drive plate expert contact.

[murdomack]

Originally Posted by Frosty

This size of tank that I am using is exactly the size that pre lube recommended to me --size F it is 4 Quarts (American measure) it will only fill half of that so thats 1/2 a gallon.

It all depends on your oil pressure, at Zero you have an accumulator with 1 US Gal of air in it at 1 atmosphere. Pressure compresses the air, roughly 1 bar halves the volume of air, 2 bar makes it 1/3 and if your engine is at 50 psi then the air will be compressed to almost 1/10th of a US Gal.

This is all pretty rough calcs but not far off, so you could be moving over 3-1/2 quarts back and forth. That's why I think you should be re-filling your tank as soon as the pressure buils up.

[Frosty]

I think your right, Im having second thoughts on this, only1/10 of a gallon left? moving 3 1/2 quarts?

Im thinking I might go back to the pump idea, pump filter , check valve (OWV) and modify the sump plug which is a banjo bolt holding the dip stick tube. I could fit a double banjo with an extended banjo bolt or drill and tap the original banjo bolt.

It seemed the long way , but now seems the shortest.

Cylinders are too big are'nt they?

[masalai]

In that case why not "dry sump" the engines and then you can have a large reservoir elsewhere and keep it separately filtered.... then, as soon as the "ignition switch" is turned on oil can start flowing, by electric pump? to where it is needed before the engine even cranks over.... the reservoir is fed by the engine pump, keeping the sump empty..., The electric engine lube supply pump could also feed "polishing filters" and just recirculate the oil back to the reservoir... - - - You just need to ensure "crank splash" does not play a significant part in lubrication?...

A mechanically simple solution... Just a thought from a non-mechanic, in a burst of lateral thinking... Could also add significant value to the engineering of your boat...

[Frosty]

That would mean removing the sump and engine . re piping the engine pump to the tank supply, fitting scavenging pump to the sump before I started with the electric one which normally have a duration of 30 minutes on,- and 30 off.

I shall retire to the chair on the aft deck in the early morning sun. May even go for a walk in my new running shoes that I modified with silicone yesterday, I shall go and kick some monkeys, bit cold this morning wont be any snakes about till noon, I need to think about this.

All this because of what ???? Yanmar. Then when I get this sorted I have the rattle that sounds like I left my tool box on the engine.

No emails this morning. from Yanmar!!!

[Yellowjacket]

Originally Posted by Frosty

I think your right, Im having second thoughts on this, only1/10 of a gallon left? moving 3 1/2 quarts?

Cylinders are too big are'nt they?

Well, maybe yes and maybe no...

Depends on how much oil you put in them. You can control the amount of oil in the cylinders by using a one way valve with a known cracking pressure. As noted earlier, the amount of oil in the cylinder is going to be based on the pressure, so if for instance you were to use a 30 psi cracking pressure valve, and the maximum oil pressure was 45 psi the cylinder would see 15 psi and the cylinder would only have 2 quarts in it. Murdo is right, a bit of junk could lodge in the valve so you should screen the valve inlet, a fine mesh screen should do it.

Frosty, so now are you starting to figure out that there is a diffrence between a couple of "simple buckets" and an engineered system like the Acusump?

As you look into it more into it and learn, now you can see why the Acusump works. Its design addresses all the issues that you are trying to solve. You can control the amount of preload pressure that controls when oil starts to flow into the Acusump and the maximum amount of oil that goes into it by adjusting the pressure on the other side of the piston. With the Acusump all you have to do is set the pressure on the back side of the piston and open the valve when you want to start the engine and maybe shut it earler when you have big pressure in the engine. You don't need more than one valve, no orifice, and it is a pretty simple system and it will purge the filter, and it has a gage on it, so you can make sure it's charged.

What more can you ask for? Sure it cost a little bit, but not all that much....

The pump system cost a bit more, but neither one is that expensive...

Stop being so darn cheap and go buy what works....

[Frosty]

The pump will work, does not need overfilling the engine, will run long enough to do the job , will not exhaust itself of oil supply, will absolutely work and prime to 1 bar 100% sure. Will be able to change engine oil, Will be able to prime new filters.

Can buy locally Piusi Italian vane pumps , can buy banjo fittings and hydraulic lines. can order one way valve, can order filter holder.

I am on a desert Island , post rarely turns up , Ive given up expecting parcels, Im not paying fedex 300 +us dollars, most American companies don't post outside USA and don't take mastercard over the phone. Some do,- rare.

And most importantly wheres the fun in that. I don't pay people to wash my boat either , when that day comes Ill'e sell it.

I'de rather spend 330 dollars for a flight and 3 nights hotel in Singapore where I know where to buy anything.

Yes Im a bit grumpy today!!