reliability

Well, thats all nice, but every other engine brand or make would have done the same right?

[Frosty]

Yes electronic fuel injection on a boat is stupid. As for Gardner having more "parts count" than a modern engine? what do you have in mind. My wife calls them shiny bits.

Is this a private conversation what is DD? try not to abbreviate, other people don't know what you are talking about, including me.

Originally Posted by Frosty

Yes electronic fuel injection on a boat is stupid. As for Gardner having more "parts count" than a modern engine? what do you have in mind. My wife calls them shiny bits.

Is this a private conversation what is DD? try not to abbreviate, other people don't know what you are talking about, including me.

Frosty DD means Detroit Diesel, and the statement "more parts" was referring to them (two stroke) not to Gardners.

mydauphin
almost all major brands offer airstart as a option, but that has some drawbacks too, you know? At least in Europe the tank has to be tested and classed every second year. The compressor is either a permanently driven (additional noise, and power suction), or a separate one (cost and space issue).
Nothing is for free in our Naval environment.
And we should stop to compare the engines with electronic controls with those mechanically controlled.


Regards
Richard

[FAST FRED]

So when it came time to build my boat, DD with Air start.

Hydraulics can also be pumped up with a small air pump and TIME.

But be sure to include Murphy Switchgages , they are mechanical and will still be working AFTER the lightning side stroke , and with a battery pac will still serve as chief engineer , ringing an alarm or if you prefer securing the engine if your personally set engine limits are reached.

Use them on the noisemaker too, great insurance!!


and the statement "more parts" was referring to them (two stroke)

Some of the "more parts" are due to the individual cylinder injection pump.

In a Bosch style injection , if the pump dies , break out the tow rope , and the LLoyds Open Salvage Agreement.

On a Detroit Diesel (DD) failure of an injector (or its internal pump) simply means 20 hp less to come home with.

Each injector has its own rocker (like an exhaust valve has) so even at idle the rocker can be loosened to not operate the injector , should the need arise.

Also individual cylinders can be replaced , so damage is contained and repairs cheaper than a total rebuild .

FF

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

Some of the "more parts" are due to the individual cylinder injection pump.

On a Detroit Diesel (DD) failure of an injector (or its internal pump) simply means 20 hp less to come home with.
Also individual cylinders can be replaced , so damage is contained and repairs cheaper than a total rebuild .
FF

There are quite a bit more parts on a DD. A 4 stroke has about half of the DD´s. parts.
And many of the features mentioned above are valid for several other engines too, though 4 stroke. All old fashioned of course. Several of the old injection pumps (Bosch made) allow for individual setting at rest. Almost all of the bigger marine engines allow for individual cyl. replacement too.
Do´nt get me wrong, I was one who said the -71 series Detroit was a reliable engine. So, please do´nt draw a picture as if I was against them. But there are others (or have been) almost as good. And if we leave the -71 series, then DD is just one of many good (and sometimes not so good) manufacturers. The 60 for example is scrap.

Regards
Richard

[Frosty]

A diesel 4 stroke has 1/2 the parts of a Detroit diesel 2 stroke?

Your talking about the blower? can you be more specific?

1/2 the parts is quite a claim.

[mydauphin]

I think 1/2 parts comes in with blower and 4 valves per cylinder, and injector stuff, but it is all stuff that doesn't break except under extreme usage. The only way a DD (DETROIT dIESEL) fails, is wrong coolant, oil or over reving, out of control engine.

Originally Posted by Frosty

A diesel 4 stroke has 1/2 the parts of a Detroit diesel 2 stroke?
1/2 the parts is quite a claim.

Thats not a claim Frosty, thats a Fact.
There is the blower, a additional camshaft, followers, pushrods, more valves, actuator bar, additional fuel oil cooler, PTO housing and gear, and so on and on. All in all a DD has more than twice the parts of any other engine.
Therefore twice the possibility of failure or wear of parts.
It makes it just more impressive that these engines (we talk the -71 series only) are so well known for reliability. But as I said above "in general a DD is not better than any other prime brand".

Regards
Richard

[FAST FRED]

"The 60 for example is scrap."


Strange concept , the 71 series 6 & 8 would go 400,000miles to the inframe overhaul , and about 300,000+ for a couple more , when it would be pulled for a rebuild.

The Series 60 Detroits are regularly running 1,000,000 to 1,500,000 in over the road trucks before the first major service.

"SCRAP" , is a strange concept for this level of trouble free endurance.

Why the "Scrap" comment .Have YOU got less than a million miles from your fleet?

FF

[mydauphin]

DD followers and owners are a separate religion. I belong to several owners group and the level of loyalty is great. As long as the hp output of most engines is kept below a certain level all engines are reliable. That said the trend in recent years (last twenty..lol..) to increase Hp and make engine lighter has led to engine that are not as reliable as old big iron. That said, I don't like series 60, because I like old DD modularity and two stroke power.

Two strokes get more power per revolution. There is so much untapped potential in DD's. The series 60 is better for truck because they have wider and lower torque band. One of the little known secrets of two strokes DD's is that they like to rev. So much that they go crazy and explode.

Like I said shame no one kept upgrading them.

On a other note. If I had to put diesel engines on a coastal only boat, I might consider newer electronic engines because of greater tuneablity and less noise.

[FAST FRED]

Like I said shame no one kept upgrading them.


Unfortuniatly we are under the thumb of the Mother Earth Religion ,

so the Air Police And CO2 Warming Baloney has lots more to say about what engines can operate , and which can not.

The sad part is it is so expensive to "prove" an engine to the high priests of fantasy that the number of eng mfg is declining all around the world.

Soon we may be purchasing really efficient low cost Grey Market engines from the Chinese , instead of the first world mfg.

FF

Originally Posted by FAST FRED

Why the "Scrap" comment .Have YOU got less than a million miles from your fleet?

FF

Did this deteriorate to the "Trucker online" forum now?

I do´nt run a Truck fleet, and if, I probably would ask here:
http://www.dieselenginetrader.com/diesel_talk/
to get a first hand opinion!

But the topic was reliability of marine Diesel engines, right? And the 60 series DD is´nt famous for reliability.

Regards
Richard

Btw: ALL modern Diesel engines get out more hours on service than their predecessors!

[hartley]

I think the original question was for a used marine diesel in the 150hp range
the name Gardner came up ,an excellent choice ,big heavy slow running and i think thr 6lx was a bit shy of 150 hp ,but due to scarcity you will pay big bucks .then there was the detroit 71 series,plenty of these around and at bargain prices ,mainly because of the huge number made .Fast Fred has really hit the nail on the head here regarding the Detroits I agree 100 per cent with everything he has said ,there is a vast difference between owning and operating one and listening to hearsay rubbish .The only thing i would add is the smooth running and lack of vibration of the Detroits .My 3-71 in a wooden thirty footer ,HARD MOUNTED on big and long bearers bears this out
the reason for lack of vibration is the 2 stroke design and balance shaft construction .Where on earth did this nonsense of twice the parts in a Detroit 2 stroke originate compared to a 4 stroke design ,heaven help us ....
cheers hartley

[FAST FRED]

."Where on earth did this nonsense of twice the parts in a Detroit 2 stroke originate compared to a 4 stroke design ,heaven help us ...."

Armchair "experts".

FF

Originally Posted by hartley

.Where on earth did this nonsense of twice the parts in a Detroit 2 stroke originate compared to a 4 stroke design ,heaven help us ....
cheers hartley

and:

Armchair "experts".

FF

Well gentlemen, YOU are the armchair experts here around!!!
In case of Fred I am a bit astonished though.
Hartley has delivered proof right here in his statements related with vibration.
and yes hartley ....heaven help us!

A Detroit Diesel engine has MORE than twice the parts of the average 4 stroke competitor!

And your local engine dealer would have agreed to that of course. But obviously you do´nt know any Diesel engine dealers to ask!

So, before you make idiotic statements about a boatbuilders knowledge here, you should improve yours!