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  #91  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:05 AM
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Fanie Fanie is offline
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Quote:
Then it became obvious that you are not trying to write tutorial but rather play joke on people looking for one. All you did after that post is to tell people they are incapable of designing their own boat.
Richard has the knowledge to offer the correct information - instead of attacking him why not ask him to give some information. He doesn't have to, but if you are nice instead of agressive and demanding it may have the right reaction.

If you disagree, then just think how it is working for you so far...
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  #92  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:17 AM
M-Sasha
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Puhh
that turned not so good here.
It seems bdvlajko goes out for having hassle, and others feel nice to jump on that train.

I did learn how to manage Freeship+ from this tread only!!! Thank youagain Richard!!!

Stupid people like bdvlajko will not learn that, shure. He cannot read that is the problem.
7 postings 7 times agression, nothing we can learn from. No wait, we can learn, this man is not worth being noticed. Go play in another place vlajko.

Sasha

Oh just see my CP paneel
Thank you Fanie and Mike Johns!


One last note (I know Richard will kick my a..s but I say that now)

This man Richard (apex) has picked me up from the roads in Odessa when I was a street dog. He has financed my school, my Universitie and my first jobs and my boatyard.
This man is not joking! He acts when you drivel.
Sasha
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  #93  
Old 11-01-2009, 06:35 AM
Ad Hoc Ad Hoc is offline
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You're all missing the point of the thread....and becoming unnecessary truculent, for what reason, i cannot fathom.

Maybe too much alcohol..or maybe the time of year, it is hallowev'en after all, since I've had 3 neg hits in one day for pointing out what a design methodology is, but the button pushers but the don't like being told doing something "bit by bit" to eventually arrive at an answer, is actually reactive (not proactive), hence iterative and ergo, not design per se. (not to a naval architect it ain't...maybe to someone who lives inside their program!).

If you already know how to press buttons and get pretty pictures, fine, why read the thread....if you don't and want to see how someone in the "same boat" (pun intended) does it, make endless silly (and obvious to some) mistakes, but learns how to over come them...then read on - or even better why not explain why doing XX is better than doing YY, if you already know how. Anything else is pointless and doesn't add to the purpose of this thread.

Everyone has their own way of learning and doing things...some are more open and honest about it than others. There are far too many button pushers on this site than haven't a clue what they are doing in terns of "design" as it is, yet claim they do since they can produce 'pretty pictures' (my niece, she can do that too, so what?? though for a 13year old she deserves the praise)- but just don't like being told otherwise....(classic immature/unprofessional behaviour)...as least Apex/Richard doesn't hide the fact. He is celebrating it!

I'm sure there are many out there how have gotten as much out of this thread, as Richard has put into it.

My 2/c worth..
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  #94  
Old 11-01-2009, 07:29 AM
bdVlajko bdVlajko is offline
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O.K.
Let's get things straight without calling the other side "idiot" or "stupid" like you did. And you know nothing about me.

If this thread is to explain the process of designing the boat where are these steps ? I can only see very brief instructions on how to get pretty pictures on screen and nothing else. Of course, this is far from designing a boat and the title is misleading. I (like many others that will find this thread on google) got attracted by title just to find that thread covered almost nothing from boat design and then got crucified for complaining.

Yes, it is nice to know which button to push to get a boat picture but I would rather see you smart guys explain to novices why some nice picture may not be a nice boat. Why isn't there some brief instructions on how to check boat stability for example ? Or to explain the meaning of some coefficients from hydrostatic report ? What about some basic characteristics of different types of hull ? Selection of materials ? Not to mention propulsion, propellers etc ...

Only then would this be a "step by step to design your own boat".

As for me, I already said I learned my way by reading (not only on this forum) - not by asking. I am using Delftship (thank you Martijn) and Michlet (thank you Leo). It took me somewhere around 30 different hulls to figure out that round bilge hull with transom above the water works best for my low-speed displacement type boat project (soon to be called "design"). I wish I was able to read that in some "step by step" thread so I don't get called stupid idiot.

Regards
Vladimir
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  #95  
Old 11-01-2009, 07:36 AM
Ad Hoc Ad Hoc is offline
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Vladimir
"..Yes, it is nice to know which button to push to get a boat picture but I would rather see you smart guys explain to novices why some nice picture may not be a nice boat..."

Then you are in the minority. Since many "button pushers" just want/covet praise. They don't like being told, that all their efforts are for nowt and/or their understanding is incorrect. It seems adult amateurs are very very sensitive children, to be told how to design, and, is not what they call design.

Since, I have a fist full of pathetic weak spineless comments and neg. hit points to go with them, for for trying to explain to those who would like to know...or at least say they do!
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  #96  
Old 11-01-2009, 07:47 AM
M-Sasha
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Quote:
I can only see very brief instructions on how to get pretty pictures on screen and nothing else. Of course, this is far from designing a boat and the title is misleading. I (like many others that will find this thread on google) got attracted by title just to find that thread covered almost nothing from boat design and then got crucified for complaining.
OK one must agree, that is true. The title is misleading for a complete novice.
(that does not excuse your atackks)

But when one reads carefully what comments there are very early in the thred one can see, how it was meant.

You posted a set of data one page back. If I was you, i would recalculate that by hand! Richard was right, the figures are not in line with reality. Michlet is a dangerous tool if you have not the knowledge to see the limitations!
But that is the same with every software, it is not pushing buttons as Ad Hoc says sooooo often. (and soooo right)

Sasha
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  #97  
Old 11-01-2009, 07:57 AM
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Fanie Fanie is offline
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Hi Vladimir,

There is a problem with boats. Firstly the veriety of shapes, application and sizes is huge ! Each of them require a different set of design cryteria, which if not met can result in damage and serious injury if not fatal.

I think for the most part every one here is carefull with information regarding 'how many layers' for instance. If you run off and build a thing that destructs under speed or the boat sink because a structure collapsed under a wave and your kid drowns... God forbid ! Who are you going to blame then ?

Any one that builds a boat who does not make very sure of what he is doing must let his head read by a psycho doc. The way to check your glass and structure is to find someone that is a specialist with this and have him calculate that the requirements is.

The once you know that, you have to remember those calculations is under ideal glass process conditions, you may not have the skill or means to make such a good layup, hence have to compensate for it.

Secondly, contrary to what most believe, boat hull shapes are extremely complex. While any one can make a sloth, it is a fine art in design to make a hull function efficiently. If you make a slow and poorly designed hull, it is going to be worth less. It can be something simple on a hull that makes it economic or not. Again, an expert will be able to recognise such errors in design.

I myself have a few people I bug every now and again for advice and professional calculations. It does not matter to me if I like them or if they like me, I remain courtious towards them for what they are willing to inform me of. If they cannot or will not then I have to find the information elsewhere.

There are experts on this forum, some have vast experience. It is up to you if you want to get the knowledge from them - for free - and on their time or not. No one here is under obligation to give any one any thing. The knowledge I have gathered here in a relative short time is something one cannot buy any where.

Richard is right, there are too many things to consider than to just assume a step by step is going to get your own designed boat build. Maybe you can, but then you would not need the step by step...
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  #98  
Old 11-01-2009, 08:09 AM
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Fanie Fanie is offline
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Oh, I needed to add , it has nothing to do with how stupid any one is. One is only stupid if you do not accept sound advice. Life is too short to learn from your own experiences.
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  #99  
Old 11-01-2009, 08:10 AM
M-Sasha
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lewisboats. did Richard not ask many times to contribute here? To continue?

Modeling boats in Freeship-The techniques of Using the sofware

nice you made that! But why not much earlier, why not here?

Not enough mature guys around here. Ad Hoc was right. AGAIN

Sasha
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  #100  
Old 11-01-2009, 08:23 AM
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Fanie Fanie is offline
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Most wanna be boat builders run off, spend a bunch on materials, then discover it is not what they really expected - it is more work than they thought, it is going to take longer, then develop wife problems, money problems and in the end they have a bad opinion of 'boat building'

Stick around for a while. See if it's for you... Nothing wrong with buying a boat and fix it up either.
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  #101  
Old 11-01-2009, 08:41 AM
bdVlajko bdVlajko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-Sasha View Post
You posted a set of data one page back. If I was you, i would recalculate that by hand! Richard was right, the figures are not in line with reality. Michlet is a dangerous tool if you have not the knowledge to see the limitations!
I only used software to compare different hulls relative to each other. Michlet gave nice textual output in file ship_output_by_speed which I imported in excell to compare. See attached picture. These are all different hulls. If I was to build a boat with target speed of >15km/h I would select red line hull. I was more interested in low power so blue line at speeds up to 13km/h (~7 knots) was my choice. If interested, I can post .fbm file so you can play with it.

Now regarding trusting absolute values provided by michlet ... if I am to spend two-year savings for building a boat, I will triple check every damn figure before I even start. Both by computer and by hand.
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Step by step to design your boat!-hulls.png  
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  #102  
Old 11-01-2009, 11:22 AM
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thudpucker thudpucker is offline
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For a hacker or a dreamer, the use of Freeship is just the first step in the negotiations with a real boat designer.
It's the common language.
You send the drawings of your dreams to the Designer. The designer can turn them into plans or tell you what is wrong with your dream.

Me and most other dreamers would never become designers with Freeship because of the million other parts of the design beyond the stick drawings.

One of the things I never found on Freeship was the corners at the rear, and the front corners.
That seems easy when your scratching on coffee stained napkins, but there must be a logical reason for making those corners the way its done. I've seen it done three different ways. Yea and verily I remain confused. I'll rely on Lewis for my Jon boat. And Freeship to relay my dreams to the designer.
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  #103  
Old 11-01-2009, 11:49 AM
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lewisboats lewisboats is offline
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I...AM...very much...Touched in your faith. I hope that the simple design I sent does everything it is supposed to do and not a thing that it isn't. However... The design criteria is only as relevant as the description of the proposed usage is accurate. In other words...it ain't gonna do tricks you didn't tell me it was supposed to do! I hope it faithfully does all the tricks it was designed to do for you though... for a long time to come.
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  #104  
Old 11-01-2009, 11:52 AM
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thudpucker, "million other parts of the design" thats the idea but think its exagurated eh,, let me count...
as a fervent coffee stained napkin scratcher i have to ask what you mean by "those corners" ?
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  #105  
Old 11-01-2009, 12:26 PM
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thudpucker thudpucker is offline
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"..those corners.."
Lewis sent me a drawing of a simple little boat I'd like to build.
It's just the drawing, not the plans. I'm supposed to make a little cardboard boat out of the drawings etc. I didnt get that done yet, but I have confidence in his drawing.

I went to a Wooden boat show in Guntersville AL and looked at the construction of various sized Wood boats.

At the junction of the Transom, the Side and the bottom, is the corners I was referring to. The front of a Jon boat has the same corners.

Consider the Chine board that fits full length of the side and bottom.
Then the same fit where the Transom and Bottom are joined.
There are six parts all coming together at that juncture.

I saw three different ways it was done at the boat show. I don't know if they were following plans or not.

On several there was some trick n' fancy miter and bevel work down there.
That just aint me. I like strong joints. Not weak thin pieces of wood held together by glue and faith.

Another was just boards stuck together from the bottom up. Kinda the way I'd build a Shed in the Garden.

I finally thought I'd put the corner piece between the side and the Transom in first. All the way around the boat. Upside down on a bench or saw horses.
Then I'd fit the Chine board and the front n' rear seal boards to the sides, transom and front transom by Butt Joints.
Then I'd fair everything and screw the bottom to the nice framework I'd just made.

That's what I'd do. I don't know what the actual plans would call for though.

As a kid I worked as a Roofer. On new construction, the "Sheets" are laid out on a big table somewhere for all the contractors to use in making sure they are doing their part correctly.
With a good Architect, almost every nail is located in those "Sheets"
That's what I meant by a 'Million other parts' to the design (sheets).
Just think how complex something with twin engines, several fuel tanks, creature comfort plumbing, wiring, etc would be.
I look at that like making a Lace blanket. Too much detail work for a hacker like me.
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