Rhino Newbie Act Too...

[jprev]

Another Rhino newbie... But I do have easy questions...

I have downloaded and played with Rhino and while I learned a long time ago that first impressions can be deceiving (first wife for example) I can't see where this will be outrageously difficult. It's very intuitive and well documented. So am I wrong? Should I be looking at Pilot 3D or FormZ? Or this or that? I also have the demo of ProSurf 3 that seems, at this point anyway, to work pretty well. Will Pilot 3D work better with ProSurf or should I be able to import DXF files into Rhino and just continue on my merry way?

The primary use and application of ProSurf will be skiff and small boat design (monohull/multihull) to about 50', the primary use of Rhino will be to render the same.

Also, and you thought that was it... I use AutoSketch a lot. I like it, it's a baby step for AutoCad users but the DXF and DWG formats are available and I am hoping that will also import relatively easily to and from other applications. Any suggestions? Comments? Drawbacks? And will the Cubs win the pennant?

Thanks,

Joe

[lucas DOSSO]

rhino and probasic(does trhey work together).If i do my huLL with probasic(only 5 surfaces) can i add cockpit,deck and cabin surfaces done with rhino? We work in 3D? Rhino gives 2D plans? Thanks for answering, lucas.

[jprev]

Hi

I really don't know... Sorry. Rhino will import .dxf files although they look a little weird. And I suppose you could then edit them. I didn't go much further with Rhino because I just can't pay $900. So I found POVRay and AC3D and am trying them out.

One side note. The .dxf files created by ProSurf seem to be as versitile (cross software usable) as any. You can take .dxf files, open them in AutoSketch and add anything you like.

Good luck,

Joe

[felip]

No, It's not hard to learn.....Rhino has some plug ins to do stability, plate expansion and rendering, pilot 3d seems to be a nice software but don't buy it, buy prosurf, pilot3d is prosurf with out the marine related calculations. use prosurf for hull shapes, and finish your design in rhino, model deckhouses, accesories etc...render with flamingo (plug in render for rhino), if you use autosketch, its ok you can create 2d drawings of your 3d model in rhino and then save it as a DWG and finish borders and details in autosketch. you will be able to import from prosurf to rhino iges files which is a neutral format and works just great, and you will be able to import dwg files from autosketch (most recomended only lines (eg..profile of the boat, plan views that you may sketched first in autosketch).

but you will be importing form autosketch only profiles and plan views for reference in rhino and then create the 3d model based in those sketches.

you will be importing from prosurf 3d surfaces (iges files) to finish your model like bulwarks, structure and etc...

good luck


lucas DOSSO wrote

"rhino and probasic(does trhey work together).If i do my huLL with probasic(only 5 surfaces) can i add cockpit,deck and cabin surfaces done with rhino? We work in 3D? Rhino gives 2D plans? Thanks for answering, lucas."


Yes and no, there is no comercial relation between rhino3d and prosurf (as far as a i know), but yes you can create your surfaces (hull) in probrasic shape it and fair it, and then export it from prosurf into Rhino3d (iges files)


Yes you can add the rest of the structure and shapes in rhino and works great.


Yes you work in 3D

Yes rhino can create 2d drawings of your 3d model.


jprev...

if you are doing modeling and nice renders and pictures of boats that may work (try bender) AC3d its great, but if you are going to build models and plans or get more serius into boats, rhino or a nurb based software its a priority.

[SailDesign]

the best file type for importing tpo Rhino seems to be IGES, as it retains the NURBS characteristics. DXF will just import polyfaces, and is therefore not useful for trimming or smooth rendering.
I use AutoShip for hull shaping, and then Rhino for everything else.
STeve

I am curently practising with a demo version of Rhino. It seems to be a reasonable easy program bu neverthe less i have three more Rhino questions.

1) If i import an IGES file, with multiple intersecting surfaces, how can i trim these surfaces? It does not seem to work with the two imported surfaces. if i draw a new surface this can be trimmed.

2) If i can not export an IGES file but a DXS mesh or poly lines only, how can i convert this into a surface that can be properly eddited in Rhino?

3) i have imported a hull shpe into Rhino. i have drawn a offset inside the hull to deduct the skin thikness. it looks like this innerskin is "outside" the original imported surface. what is going on, is this still correct??

Please help

[Robert Miller]

I have no experience (yet) with any boat design CAD. Am I correct that Rhino, though it is by itself an excellent design and rendering tool, does not include calculations such as, stability, damaged stability, hydrostatics, velocity predictions, construction tools (with rules library), etc.
If correct, then this cannot represent a complete solution ... (such as MaxSurf, for example, which may offer a suite of programs that together offer a complete solution.)
OK...teach me.
Thanks.
Robert

[guest12020101217]

The Rhino plug ins for hydrostats etc are not as detailed as maxsurf suite for example, but clearly one has to remember cost.
The following is maybe not so great for stabilty, but sometimes the best solution to powering perdiction, scantlings (ie contructon calcs) is Mricosoft Execl, a pen and some paper. Using theory Papers, texts books etc (and your head) and writing spreadsheets and little programs give the same results.
Yes, time is a key factor.
Taking measurements from your hull model, linesplan, drawing and
writing a spreadsheet based on Savitsky papers is not as quick as opening your rhino model then moving it in to hullspeed, but the results will be the same as both methods use the same theory.
VPP can be done in a spreadsheet as well and give good results against WinDesign VPP.
I would be the first to say, l could not live without my maxsurf suite and solidworks. But l try (and try) to always remind myself that the theory, methods and calc done by my software is the same as in the folders of papers and notes l have. I can get the same or very very very similar results with execl and some time.
Since the design areas of most of a project are based on theory, who numbers are the most correct, my cals or the software?
In anwser to Robert's quote. Rhino can be a solution if you are willing to invest the time to get results and data from other means then buying a £1000 suite of Naval Architect software when rhino can't do what you need. To go a step above excel, you can always write plug ins for rhino and like using the SAME theories as used in the excel or Naval architect software.
There is no one best solution to tools need to design "boats".
The solution differ depending on the designer situation.
YOUR AIMS
SKILL
TIME
COST

Here may question.
Can everything needed to produced a design of a vessel be done with one single bit of software?
My answer is YES. After all it can be done with no software at all.

cjdengate

[CGN]

right in the money!....thats the best answer for all those..."my software is better than yours".....and "my software is expensier than yours"........"i have class A surfaces"...."i have the solution to all diseases with the click of my super software".....hahaha that last one as a joke, but i bet you that more than one software seller has thought that.

good one, keep them coming.

[CGN]

1) If i import an IGES file, with multiple intersecting surfaces, how can i trim these surfaces? It does not seem to work with the two imported surfaces. if i draw a new surface this can be trimmed.

Sorry, I will need to see that file i never had any problem like that, all can think of is to explode the model that you imported into rhino and try again, make sure that the surfaces are correct for triming and this planes cut the model properly. there is anotehr way but it will be diffucult to me explain it will be alittle bit long. if you want post the model and i can have a look at it.

2) If i can not export an IGES file but a DXS mesh or poly lines only, how can i convert this into a surface that can be properly eddited in Rhino?

Depending on how complex is your model, you may be able to do something like is done in the file attached,

DXS, is it LinuxCAD?


3) i have imported a hull shpe into Rhino. i have drawn a offset inside the hull to deduct the skin thikness. it looks like this innerskin is "outside" the original imported surface. what is going on, is this still correct??

maybe you offset the wrong way?, is hard to call this one.

but here is the file that shows the model after being imported into rhino made of polylines, and and then shows how i add splines and fair this ones (its very very very basic just to give you an idea), and then loft trough the splines and create the surfaces.

i hope it helps....for everyone is very basic and raw, but i guess that for those new to rhino can see how to acomplish import a dxf file and work it out to a editable surface in rhino.

good luck

[CGN]

sorry the file is too large is an avi file i don't know how to make it small, but i will post a copy of the rhino file with the original polyline model and the final surfaces


sorry again

[guest12020101217]

Originally Posted by CGN

colindengate........rhight in the money!....thats the best answer for all those..."my software is better than yours".....and "my software is expensier than yours"........"i have class A surfaces"...."i have the solution to all diseases with the click of my super software".....hahaha that last one as a joke, but i bet you that more than one software seller has thought that.

good one, keep them coming.

It funny how marine software has be come such a "hot potato". But l love to hear so meany point of views. Good to know that our marine world does this.

Anyway to the point. Those of you who are members of RINA or have access to issues of "The Naval Architect" should look at the Jan 2004 copy. In it is a number bit about software systems. Albacore Research Ltd in Canada have just release EXPANDER, a surface expansion plug in for Rhino.
Albacore Reseach Ltd (ARL) are the people behind ShipConstructor, a "in AutoCAD" piece of software.

www.albacoreresearch.com
a 15day trial, manual, and white paper seem on offer.

In the same issues of "The Naval Architect is also a piece about how Formation Design System (FDS) (The maxsurf people) and ARL have developed a interface for taking a inital design from FDSs Workshop in ARL ShipConstructor.

I would just like to make clear the aims of my original quote.
Is a suite from FDS with AutoCAD + Shipcondtructor the best solution?
Is a Rhino + a couple of plug ins like PHASER and FLAMINGO? the best?
Is Maxsurf, TurboCAD + pen, paper, a spreadsheet software the best?
The answer is no one is the best.
It depends on you.
I have very strong view on solidworks. But l think this might help newbie looking for software.
When we say "I use X with Y and think it is the best as it does this and that" We say, "I use X with Y and think it is the best for me in this situation of designing this type of craft as a (pro, am or hobby type design/engineer) in this cost and time area.

Anyway, back to the articles in "The Naval Architect"
I think these give a good view of how the naval architecture and CAD/CAM software industry is developing.
Can one piece of software do it all? The answer NO. But in the future, who knows, but at the moment there seem to be a approach to software development.

A company keeps developing it package that does a specific (or set range) of tasks or task.
Examples are, FDS - Hull development, Stabilty, initial construction etc
AutoDesk - Non prespecific CAD/CAM
ARL - prespecific CAD/CAM for the marine industry but with a other company's interface.
(Please note not when l say "CAD/CAM" l mean not just the modelling and drawing elements)
Next all the companies develop interfaces between specific other companys software.
The result is a set of different "element" to cover all the tasks.

How do people feel about the fact that the interface between the elements
are software or company prespecific?
Yes most software has a range of import/export format, but the loss of detail/form between them can be a porblem.
Will we ever see a move toward standand format?
Love to hear peoples view.

[SailDesign]

Love to hear peoples view.

I have what I have, and it works. It may not be the best, or the latest, but it designed boats 10 years ago perfectly well, and it still does. Rhino I keep for the "pretty stuff" and renderings.

Steve

[guest12020101217]

Originally Posted by SailDesign

I have what I have, and it works. It may not be the best, or the latest, but it designed boats 10 years ago perfectly well, and it still does. Rhino I keep for the "pretty stuff" and renderings.

Steve

Good point.

[cgorton]

Good thread. I'd like to chime in...

I certainly agree that there is currently no "ideal" single piece of software for my needs, and so I strive to use the best combination possible. As I am a yacht designer, I need to keep myself educated on a broad range of disciplines (hull shapes, construction techniques, electrical design, systems design, interior styling, etc.) Therefore, I do look for software that doesn't require me to be a software-specific guru. (If I drew nothing but fuel tanks, maybe I could get by with a solid modeller alone.) Ideally, I want as few software packages as possible to get the job done (well).

Of course, this relates to cost. If I have to upgrade eight programs every two years, I may be spending too much on software, especially if one or more upgrades are over a few hundred dollars. And, with too many packages, I can't become proficient.

So, what do I need my software to do? (This is the question we should all ask when considering a purchase.) At the initial stage, I need to get an idea from a napkin-sketch to CAD data. Assuming the client is pleased and wants to proceed, I need to define the geometry (hull, deck, etc) so that tools can be created (maybe from IGES files, or maybe from 2D paper plots, depending on the builder). I want to produce renderings for presentations, ad copy, and such. I need to communicate some data to metal fabricators (handrails, fuel tanks), some to cabinet makers (arrangement plans, joinery details). I need to keep track of parts (in a specification list or bill of material) and weight (weight study). I need to produce laminate schedules, and work with engine manufacturers on the installation.

It's become obvious to me that if I can affordably and efficiently work in 3D, this is preferable. When I move a battery, I'd like to do it once, and have everything else update.

Now, I realize that software like Solidworks can keep track of weight and a bill of materials, but is it realistic for me? I currently do the weight study in Excel. I have a summary page, and a bunch of other sheets. They all work differently: the FRP weights use square feet to calculate weight, the deck hardware page is line item, a variables page keeps track of fuel and water, my joinery page uses materials and square feet. If I want a solid modeller to keep track of all this, don't I need to create solids of everything? I don't think I want to try to accurately model the FRP laminate schedule! But, I don't think weight and bill of materials is important to have linked- I can do it separately.

What about creating drawings? Again, I know solid and surface modellers can produce 2D drawings, but can I control these to the extent I need? From an artistic perspective, I may want to omit certain lines from a 2D presentation, or even "fudge" something. Maybe I don't need as many lines shown as are technically there because I'm producing a profile of the boat for a magazine. Maybe I want to add a bootstripe without modelling it.

So, I'm interested to hear how others are combining software packages and, specifically, what they are using them to produce. If you produce IGES files for a 5-axis router, how are you using (not hypothetically, mind) that file to produce bulkhead templates?

Personally, I have found it hard to do without AutoCAD (although I'm still trying). I deal with a range of vendors, and there are many who need DWG files. I have really enjoyed learning Rhino, though even with the Phaser plug-ins I think it has limitations when it comes to creating a hull. (Live waterlines, buttocks and sections would be a great start. I know Slicer is "almost" live.) I've been using Prolines Basic for hull shapes, but it doesn't have the GUI of Rhino. I'd love to use Rhino to lay out the systems, and I know how easy it is to export the data to a 2D AutoCAD file to create a drawing, but what happens when I want to make some little change? I change it in Rhino, re-export, cut & paste... I guess it could be worse. Flamingo I hear is not as advanced as some renderers, but I am able to produce perfectly acceptable images and I don't necessarily want to spend too much time with a more complicated renderer. I have looked at Solidworks, but I'm having a hard time envisioning myself creating a 1000 part assembly. (I know the software can handle it, but I don't have a NASA budget to work with). I also worry about Solidworks producing presentation drawings, like the ones you see in a magazine's boat review section.

I'd love to hear others' experiences, and especially to see examples. Please bear in mind, I know there are specific packages that people claim are the "best" for a given task, but I want to know what you're using start to finish.

Thanks.