Marine Design Software for Hull Modeling? (2012)

[Admin]

Continued from Best Marine Design Software for Hull Modeling? (2011)

Which hull modeling programs do you use as your primary hull design software?

• Autoship (Autoship Systems Corporation)
  
• DefCar (DefCar Engineering)
  
• Delftship
  
• Fastship
  
• Free!Ship Plus
  
• HullCAO (HullCAO)
  
• HullForm (Blue Peter Marine Systems)
  
• Maxsurf (Formation Design Systems)
  
• MultiSurf (Aerohydro)
  
• Napa
  
• Naval Designer
  
• NX
  
• Prolines (Vacanti Yacht Design)
  
• ProSurf (New Wave Systems)
  
• Rhino (Robert McNeel & Assoc.)
  
• Naval Designer (US Sales by Forum Marine)
  
• SeaSolution (SeaSolution)
  
• TouchCAD (Lundström Design)
  

[Leo Lazauskas]

I use Delftship, but I have many special routines so that it can communicate (via plain text files) with other programs such as Michlet, Flotilla, SWPE and SMP.

[Kestrel]

Substantially nothing changed for us: Best Marine Design Software for Hull Modeling? (2011), also we use some special developed software for particular application, as pre or post processors to our usual design programs.

regards
K

[cavalier mk2]

For fun I'll cast my vote for pencil and paper and half models for 3D rendering. The cost advantage is tremendous plus you already have the software which updates automatically as your experience grows. Centuries of development went into these products

[CmbtntDzgnr]

Self redacted... The "FREE" questionnaire addresses what I posted here, and now redact...

[Kestrel]

Yes, cavalier mk2, I agree, pencil and paper should be always the first steps. Better if just in this stage a smart software can help You in state the goodness of the formulation, by a quick hydro static and dynamic analysis of the idea, before going on in the detailed design...
K.

[gdoug]

Most probably use Rhino becuase it's cheap?
I've use AutoCAD, Rhino, NX, and SolidWorks for design in this industry. Thruth is part based programs such as NX & SolidWorks are the best. Though seats are more expensive they save immense amounts of time and allow you to better organize an entire project. You can create an entire bill of materials and drawing sets from a 3D model easily. They make modeling much quiker, becuase the programs are smarter, for a lack of a better term.
If I create a hull loft in Rhino and later decide that it needs to change, you have to delete it and start over. This is not the case with programs like Solidworks or NX. With those programs you simply go back and edit the lines you used to make the surface. If you make a piece of joiner the wrong cross section you need to delete it and start over with Rhino. With these programs you simply just go and change the shape you used to make it. It saves tons of time and time is what costs.

After using NX and Solidworks I dread the times I need to open up Rhino to view a file. It seems archaic.

For the price it's a great program, but there are other easier programs that will eventually save you money and agrivation.
Sorry to bash on Rhino. I havent used a version since Rhino 4.0. Maybe they've changed it to keep up.

SolidWorks, NX, and ProE are all very good programs that streamline the design and engineering process.
For example: to make 2D drawings with Rhino you need to take a 3D part and "convert to 2D." then you need to clean up all the extra and over layed lines. After that you proablycopy and paste them into AutoCAD to make a nice drawing.
These other programs do that for you atomatically. They same hours tedious annoying work.

For 2D work nothing beats AutoCAD.

[DavidJ]

I agree with much of what you said gdoug. Rhino is used extensively in the marine industry. I don't think I've heard of a company in North America that doesn't use it. Price is absolutely a reason that it is where it is. I have never used NX, but I do have extensive experience with Catia and solidworks. The bills of materials and drawing generation is definitely great. However, Rhino still has some really great advantages against those programs. The biggest one is speed. It is just so much faster to hammer out designs in Rhino. Yeah, if you want to change it you have to throw it out, but so what it only took you half a day instead of four days with that other software. For preliminary design work and just trying to get a visual, Rhino is really handy. It is also much easier for people experienced in autocad to learn. Schools usually teach autocad. Autocad is everywhere. Rhino uses many of the autocad commands and models in a very similar way to autocad. Modeling in solidworks requires a completely different way of thinking. People who think in autocad have a hard time learning to think in solidworks. Also parametric modeling isn't always all it is cracked up to be. Yes you can change all sorts of dimensions and the model (and often the drawing) will update automatically. But if you erase the wrong line the whole thing falls apart and it's like debugging code to get it back together. In Rhino or autocad you have to know the dimensions before you start. In Catia or Solidworks you have to know how you plan to build it before you start. Say if you wanted to design a computer desk. If you want the top to be 3/4 inch thick then in Rhino you have to draw it that thick. If later you want it to be 1 inch thick you have to throw it out. Solidworks you can make it any length you want and any thickness you want. You can change it later with a couple of clicks. But with solidworks you have to know what you might want to change before you start. Say it's decided that it should have fancy french curved legs and you originally extruded a square to make straight legs? Yep you have to throw those out. Depending on how you made it (was it a feature, a part, or an assembly?) you might completely bugger up your drawing which depending on where in the tree the error is could result in starting everything again. In acad or rhino you just erase the piece you don't want and put the new one there. Which, back to the preliminary design idea, is very handy.

I've also spend hundreds of hours cleaning up solidworks drawings so I know those automatic drawings aren't so awesome all the time either. Which by the way requires exporting to autocad because the 2D editing tools in SW are sh_t. Absolutely great for small components. Notice the samples on their website are always like guitars or model airplane engines. They are total garbage for large ship design projects. Rhino is junk for that type of work as well. If you are trying to model a complete piping system for a large yacht or a ship and you want detailed 2D drawings and pipe spools and all that, then you need to go get Catia or ProE or shipconstructor or some other software that is made for that. It's really about picking the right tool for the job.

[CmbtntDzgnr]

Originally Posted by DavidJ

....If you are trying to model a complete piping system for a large yacht or a ship and you want detailed 2D drawings and pipe spools and all that, then you need to go get Catia or ProE or shipconstructor or some other software that is made for that. It's really about picking the right tool for the job.

Is that because Catia or ProE or Shipconstructor can produce symbols to show where the spools interface with bulkheads, and where valves or elbows are, assuming they are in 3D or 2D called out that way?

[DavidJ]

Sort of, but no not exactly. It's far more complicated than that. Solidworks actually has some very nice piping tools. It can produce nice BOM's (bill of materials) and you can get great catalogs of elbows and valves that all work together seamlessly. It has two big problems.
1) It isn't designed for large projects. It bogs down horribly when you have hundreds and hundreds of parts in multiple assemblies, within multiple assemblies. Catia or Shipconstructor can handle this easily.
2) It is terrible 2D drawing software. It makes awesome drawings of small mechanical engineering type objects. Those objects only need simple sections to show how they work. Trying to make the type of drawings we need in ship and boat design is nearly impossible. The amount of cleanup time in autocad can easily exceed the modeling time. Take a deck drawing for example. In ship design we show a deck by drawing it from above and we designate line types for different stiffeners. A bold dashed line might be a bulkhead for example. Solidworks does not allow this type of thing. I could really discuss this aspect for hours and I'm not sure if it will come through properly in my writing. Basically what it comes down to is SW only wants to make drawings of what is actually really there and in ship design we rarely want that. We want representations. We want to show a whole pipe line in a ship. If it goes behind a BHD I still want to see it, just make it hidden.

I'll toss in a third
3) Solidworks falls apart too easily. Switch from 3/4" pipe to 1", no problem. Switch from an elbow (which is a separate part) to a bent pipe (which is a single continuous part) and the thing falls apart. Correctable by itself individually, but you become a dog chasing your tail if there are lots of them or if there are multiple modelers working on the project.

Rhino is even worse for things like piping than Solidworks.