Graphite CAD users?

[JasonR]

I've occasionally come across users of Graphite and other Ashlar-Vellum products on this site. Please - comments from those who use it or have used it (and moved to something else?). Strengths, weaknesses, etc. Thanks.

[Tim B]

http://www.cadinfo.net/reviews/graphite.htm

I haven't used it, but there is a description at the above link. It looks ok, but I don't think it's moved forward enough to do the whole hull design, and if you're after 2D drawing, there are some nice free programs around.

Tim B.

[Timm]

I have been using Graphite for a number of years now. I have not found any other software as intuitive or easy to use as Graphite (I also use Argon, another Ashlar product). I still draw hulls by hand as I haven't found any hull design programs I am comfortable working with yet. I take the offsets from the hand drawn lines and input them into Graphite as points. I then draw lines through the points using the spline tool. I can fair the lines by moving a point with the nudge tool and redrawing the spline. It only takes a few seconds.

In the latest newsletter I received from Ashlar, they have anounced that they will be writing a plug-in program for people designing cars, boats and other transport. They were asking for people to help them and I have volunteered. They seem to be interested in adding hydro calcs to the package (probably for use in Argon and the other surface/solid modeling programs).

Order the demo disc and try it out, you may be surprised at how easy it is to use. It is basically a 2D/3D wireframe drafting package. It is meant for draftsman, not modeling or pure design.

[JasonR]

Thanks Tim and Timm.
Timm, I'm one of those recalcitrant mac users and a newbie at Westlawn (probably a double target on this site). I am trying to find alternatives to the PC/autoCAD route (at least mostly). One of the atractive feature about the Ashlar products is that they are cross-platform.

It was interesting that at Ashlar's website they featured another Yacht designer, Antinio Dias. This and the fact that you like the program has me thinking.

What was the selling point for you? Why not use fairing programs and autoCAD like so many others? It is expensive, yet your livelyhood depends on it.

Thanks, jason

[CGN]

Jason, One of the reasons why I did not followed Vellum is because of lack of plug ins for marine design, I read now that something is on the works which is great, I do like vellum but is not close to the convenience of using rhino and the plug-ins for marine design already developed like Expander and Phaser, also if you are looking for a software that runs on MAC have a look at TouchCAD, this is a good software for marine design it develops plates and performs basic hydrostatics.

good luck

[JasonR]

CGN - Thanks for the input. My understanding is still somewhat murky, though. For example, as good as Rhino might be, you can't complete a project with it. For example, after a hull surface is designed and hydrostatics calculated, there will be plenty of technical drawing to be done in say AutoCAD or TouchCAD or graphite?

Correction on my last post: The last sentence can easily be misiterpreted. I want the meaning to be "Even though Graphite is expensive, you still chose it. You must have done so for strong reasons since you livelihood depends upon it." (I shouldn't post messages just before bed!)

Thanks again all.

[ludesign]

Originally Posted by JasonR

CGN - Thanks for the input. My understanding is still somewhat murky, though. For example, as good as Rhino might be, you can't complete a project with it. For example, after a hull surface is designed and hydrostatics calculated, there will be plenty of technical drawing to be done in say AutoCAD or TouchCAD or graphite?

Correction on my last post: The last sentence can easily be misiterpreted. I want the meaning to be "Even though Graphite is expensive, you still chose it. You must have done so for strong reasons since you livelihood depends upon it." (I shouldn't post messages just before bed!)

Thanks again all.

You could also check out VectorWorks. The basic version costs about the same as AutoCAD LT but besides excellent 2D drafting it also comes with lots of 3D modeling power, including solid modeling. Just like the majority the general purpose CAD programs, it is not all that great for hull fairing though. Many TouchCAD users use a combination of VectorWorks and TouchCAD. I personally do all major panel shaping in TouchCAD and compile the detailing in VectorWorks. Both TouchCAD and VectorWorks are available for both Mac and Windows.

[Timm]

Jason, I came to Ashlar products somewhat by accident. I saw an ad for an earlier product called Drawingboard, special intro pricing of $75 (normally $279). I figured I would give it a shot as most other packages were very expensive at that time (10 years ago or so, I think). I was working for a boat company where I drew by hand and hadn't used CAD since my days at Bertram in the late 80's.

Once I started using the program, I also started trying some others, like AutoCad LT. None of these were as easy to use, so I just kept upgrading as they give you a good discount for upgrades (usually around $300, including tech support). I wanted to be able to use solids and surfaces, so last year I bought a copy of Argon, which is very similar to Rhino. It doesn't yet have the marine specific plug-ins like Rhino so I don't use it to shape hulls. I convert my 2D lines drawings to 3D and export them to Argon and then I can surface them. You could draw the 3D wireframe in Argon from the start, but I am so used to Graphite that it just seems easier for me to do the export.

As for the hull design specific programs, I have demos for 2-3 of them on my computer right now. Unfortunately, they all work by grabbing points and pulling them around in order to get the shape you want. That is more shaping by sculpture and I am not wired that way. My brain still thinks in terms of a traditional lines plan and working in unevenly spaced columns and rows with points all over just doesn't seem to make sense to my brain. Maybe if I worked at it longer it would start to make sense, but how much time would I actually save in a year where I may draw only 3-4 new hulls? Remember, most of the actual design work takes place after the hull is designed. For me personally, a pencil, ducks and a batten are still easier for me. Not as fast as someone adept at using a hull design program, but it is what I am comfortable doing. When Ashlar comes out with their plug-in program, I may find that my familiarity with their software will lead me to draw the hulls in Argon. Time will tell! I have recently designed a hull in the traditional 2D manner in Graphite and may do that again. It would be easier if I had a 36" monitor though!

[Tim B]

Jason,

I would dispute your comment about Rhino, I reckon you could do the whole project with it, even if you needed the odd bit of specialist code to do Hydrostats.

How much programming experience do you have on MACs? I am trying to get LMH (my design software, see website) available for alpha release, but I've been distracted a bit recently. I should be able to get back to it fairly soon, but it might provide you with a good starting point. LMH is only intended to do the hull design, it is not meant to be a full CAD package.

Since LMH is supposed to be open source, you could write a lines-plan overlay if you wished. I haven't done it yet because I haven't needed it. I am currently looking at writing plugins for hydrostatics and powering.

Cheers,

Tim B.

[Timm]

Tim B., I can't get your website to open, is the address in your profile correct?

[JasonR]

Tim B. -
I learned long ago that I am no programmer - that I'll leave to the experts.

Thanks for your insights.

[Gilbert]

Timm,
Have you given freeship a try? I downloaded it a few weeks ago and am very impressed with it. It is a work in progress but it is an excellent tool just the way it is now. The link is www.freeship.org
I would be interested in hearing your comments if you try it.
Best wishes,
Gilbert

[Timm]

Gilbert, I have downloaded it, but haven't had a chance to play with it yet. Maybe this weekend as it looks like we have some more rain on the way.

[Tim B]

That's because my signature wasn't a hyperlink... try this one (the adress is correct)

Tim B.

[Timm]

When I click the link get a message saying "www.marinedesign.tk can not be found. Please check the name and try again." That is the same message I got yesterday when I tried using the link in your profile. I also typed it in with no luck. I tried IE this morning thinking it maybe didn't like Firefox, but no luck. It said the "page could not be displayed." Curious, am I the only one?