Free!Ship 2.6+ vs Prediction resistance by Holtrop-Mennen started method

[Victor T]

Originally Posted by CmbtntDzgnr

I tried to "cheat" in the creation of tanks in FS 3.23, by exporting as parts the individual compartment sideshells of my model and then extruding the new boundary edges (fwd, aft, and deck edge) toward centerline and then reimporting the parts into the model, with the pre-existing shell turned off and removed from hydros.

I got either sharp increases in the SAC line (3x the surface area due to the newly-created fwd/aft/deck boundaries/meshes) or I got these funny looped/pig-tail-like SAC curves that i cannot figure out how to resolve.

If I chop down the deck lines successively to get to below the waterline where I want tanks to exist, I end up with two light-blue or cyan-colored points -- sometimes, that is. In any case, moving the lines inboard and trying to "join" them to end up with a solid doesn't work. I tried reversing the normals, but the change was insignificant.

If you create inside layers or tanks in the hull that it is necessary to disconnect their account in project hydrostatics as they shouldn't create force of buoyancy (Archimedes force)

[Victor T]

Originally Posted by CmbtntDzgnr

Hi Victor,

Short:

Last night, I tried and failed to get the Fung and several other EXEC files to run in native Win 7, mainly, as I think you warned on your site, because they are not 64-bit compatible. Maybe even my 1.8 GHz CPU is burdened by the Fung and other exe files, but it runs Delftship, Freeship, Punch! ViaCAD, and many other apps, old and new, without a problem. The EXEC contents, though very small in file size, must be extraordinarily complex in step/sequence or something.

Longer:

My earlier (and last night) failure to run them was under the environment of Win 7 (on 64-bit hardware) running in VirtualBox, running in PCLinuxOS. It's been so long now that i did the Win 7 install (~Jan 2010) that I cannot recall whether Win 7 is the 64-bit, and whether or not it is, which version 32-bit or 64-bit of VirtualBox I'm running. However, in VirtualBox, neither my hardware nor Win7 seemed to present any 64-bit layers to the EXECs because none of them give any error messages about 64-bit incompatibility.

I also, last night, ran win 7 natively. In that case, there definitely were 64-bit incompatibility warning/error messages when I double-click directly on the .exe files in the EXEC folder. Strangely, VERY strangely (and humourously), FS 3.23 ran horribly slow in native win 7, yet it runs blazingly FAST in the Virtualized Win 7, and this is now causing me to vaguely recall having issues getting win 7 to run as 64-bit in VBox in early 2010, so my current VBox-hosted installation of win-7 must be 32-bit, given the lack of error messages about 64-bit from the Fung and other exe's.

Next, i ran FS 3.23 in Win Vista, 32-bit, older version of VirtualBox. No 64-bit error messages. But, still, no graph output under fun, although the output/report did give hydros information just like the win-7-VBox install did. The CPU on the Vista machine is about 1.2 GHZ or mayb 1.8, so, likely it is stressed and plausibly is one of the problem's contributing factors.

I did not yet run Vista natively. That machine has been running about 355 days now (PCLinuxOS) without a reboot (tho with almost daily suspend/resume without a hitch/issue), and since that uptime is nice, so I don't want to disturb it . However, my main computer also has PCLinuxOS, but it gets reboted 2 or 3 times a month, hehehe (for various reasons: dead battery, spontaneous seizure during suspend or resume....)

It seems the copyright, code complexity, and program age might be an obstacle to your having it updated to current 32-bit and 64-bit compatibility. Is it in Delphi Code? Is there some way port or recompile it to run in 64-bit and maybe luckly optimize the code? Strange thing is is that while it says some variables are out of range, I tend to get partial hydros, but not the scale graph.

Cheers!

It is very interesting information. But Delphi 7 compiles a code only for 32 bit OS. I don't check compatibility with 64 bit systems and Linux.
But on a site www.x64bitdownload.com it is informed on compatibility with 64 bit OS Windows 64.
See here: http://www.x64bitdownload.com/downlo...-kxeryrsz.html

[CmbtntDzgnr]

Originally Posted by Victor T

If you create inside layers or tanks in the hull that it is necessary to disconnect their account in project hydrostatics as they shouldn't create force of buoyancy (Archimedes force)

I to my surprise and uncontrolled excitement last night serendipitously used a sealed, 4-pointed cylinder and added points and reshaped and constrained it to the confines of the bulkheads, centerline, and sideshell. When i turned on the hydros, it did not pig-tail the SAC. Upon closer inspection, i realized that by pure chance, my tank boundaries were at least (or something like) 20mm from the fore/aft boundaries of a given compartment/mesh of the compartment.

When I copied (by way of exporting and renaming and reimporting the part of) the tank and transformed its distance, the SAC changed, but then that was because it had situated too close to the station forming the fwd bdry. So, I moved it and WHALLA! The SAC returned to normal.

However, in the case of the first tank, flipping the normals has a noticable effect on the KM and displacement. One of the transformed tans fwd of amidships has a very minor effect. It still is a lot of work, but I'm okay with that since I can export the meshes and then in ViaCAD Pro, convert the meshes to surfaces, stitch them, assign them the material of "JP-5" and then get my tank weights. It would be nice if FS/DS directly calculated volume, but ViaCAD gives me the volume. Using meters as units, I can readily knock of 3 decimal places and get my tonnage in metric, and quickly decide how many more tanks I need. Currently, I'm aiming for 2,200 metric tons for JP-5, with the upper tank top or boundary at 4 meters, so it is below my DWL and also below the working decks.

Once I finalize my tank shapes and number and locations, I then can put them on a BOM (Bill of Materials) and export that to my spreadsheet where I'm tracking CGs for everything from stringers, girders, long'ls, and more, even the bulkheads. Later I'll cut the solid plates and insert facsimilis for watertight doors, scuttles, hatches, safety line stanchions, pillars, in-passageway transformers, the Gas Turbine and Reduction Gear foundations and so on.

Soooo much fun here, Victor!

[CmbtntDzgnr]

The perils of upgrading (willingly or by coercion, hehehe) to 64-bit...

If I give up on Fung, is it safe to assume that my Holtrop calculation results are (for fictional purposes, tempered by reality) are reasonably good as far as the tactical turns, stability, and powering and resistance calcs go? I'm pleased that Holtrop works fully (reports and graphic chart), but I suppose that I can live without Fung if it's not more than 10% different that Holtrop...

[CmbtntDzgnr]

Thanks, but I got this:

http://www.hydro.nuos.edu.ua/downloa..._07+update.rar

"The connection was reset

The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading."
by desktop and

"Web page not available

The Web page at http://www.hydro.nuos.edu.ua/downloa..._07+update.rar might be temporarily down or it may have moved permanently to a new address."

I searched for it using:

FreeShip3_07+update.rar

but I'm not sure of those sites and am on a work computer...

I'll have to try later...

[Victor T]

Originally Posted by CmbtntDzgnr

Thanks, but I got this:

http://www.hydro.nuos.edu.ua/downloa..._07+update.rar

"The connection was reset

The connection to the server was reset while the page was loading."
by desktop and

"Web page not available

The Web page at http://www.hydro.nuos.edu.ua/downloa..._07+update.rar might be temporarily down or it may have moved permanently to a new address."

I searched for it using:

FreeShip3_07+update.rar

but I'm not sure of those sites and am on a work computer...

I'll have to try later...

This is very old link and site www.hydro.nuos.edu.ua is not available now (intranet only). And Fung-Leibman method was added to 3.13+ and higher...

[CmbtntDzgnr]

Thanks!

I still checked, though, on a weak assumption that there might have been a different code base.

Cheers!

[daiquiri]

For what it's worth, I have never ever managed to make Fung calculation work (always get the error message about slow PC or something) even for hulls with parameters which should be ok for Fung method. I am running the FS in Win XP. At this point I suspect there is something wrong in the exe file.
Cheers

[CmbtntDzgnr]

Same here. I hope somebody fixes it, at least so there's a "Fung-Trop", hehehe....

But, I am hoping that the working Holtrop method and sea ships method are reasonably close or not glaringly out of comparison. It's not as if hobbyists knowing these things brings peril to real navies. In 1970, this would be somethng to worry about. Nowadays, overcompensating software can makeup for lack of information, at least at the State-level.

Funny thing about the Fung exe is that most of the data is there minus the chart.

What I am suspecting, though, is that (other than just being very busy with work/school) Victor probably had to disable or cripple it or leave it as it is, or maybe there is a hostile/litigous competitor out there, or the various governments or navies just are peeved and are activly causing it to "vanish" ro behave badly. DFARS and other things the USA imposes most likely DO have something at the military level to say about it, however antiquated missileers may make some things.

OTOH, so much exciting (and a lot of dry but necessary-to-be-studied) stuff is learned and available to Nav Arch students in the desire for States to cling to their domestic naval and commercial shipbuilding and operating programs that they have really little choice: recruiting and retaining qualified, motivated, commited, creative thinkers and designers is hard in the USA. A precipitous drop. Some of the various documents afloat in the Internet(s) have some excoriating things to say about failures on the part of the USA (some preventable, some inevitable due to the rise of Japan, South Korea, Vietnam, and China, to just speak of modernized Asian locales, and due to ruthless, intense, laser-like focus on keeping or growing their markets through awe-inspiring efficiencies, cross-training, reduce union roles, and more. Sobering reading material.

Eventually, somebody will make some of the software more flexible and up to date. Imagine D&D (Dungeons & Dragons) or Trek-like fans who are programmers deciding to make online combat sims that rival the Longbow Apache games and others. Who'd play a game in which a ship has an implausibly constant turning circle lacking advance and transfer. Even ex-naval players will be excited if hydros behave according to physics and not according to a state imposition tha the waves respect classification markings... hehehehe

[CmbtntDzgnr]

Well Well,

There is a 3.23 Test version for Freeship at hydronship.

http://hydronship.net/index.php?lang=en

Been available since July 6. It is not the full version, apparently, since it is about 3.7 mb. But, maybe it'll do calcs if you put the requisite folders in the app's path.

I'm going to take it or a whirl tonight.

[CmbtntDzgnr]

Hmmmm... I thought that I had posted that 3.24 is available and that Fung-Leibman works for naval ships.

Now, the funny thing is is that when I look at historical information, USN ships hydros are checked using Holtrop.

I therefore went to using both, but the differences can be large.

On my cruiser hull, I see entrance angles of 82 degrees. I experimented, trying to push in control points to adjust the flare and beam of the hull at the waterline for the first maybe 20 meters. I cannot appreciably decrease the entrance angle.

But, when I scaled up by 1.3 x the Type-23 hull for length and draft... 1.25x for the beam, i found a somewhat better entrance angle in Fung-Leibman. But, in Holtrop, the entrance angle was better. But, not for my ship model.