Best Marine Design Software for Hull Modeling? (2006)

[westlawn5554X]

I have registered for the maxsurf academic but waiting for the Admin approval. Thanks for the info. If I am approve I will try out the program and see how it will differ from other program I known.

Student

[Sonadora]

Originally Posted by Andrew Mason

...the modelling of highly sculptured surfaces and cut sheet parts are not what they do well or efficiently. Solidworks is an excellent program that has a role at a particular stage of the design process for particular types and sizes of vessels. Outside of that role, Solidworks, as well as most other parametric solids modellers, are not an ideal solution for the problems facing a large portion of the marine construction industry.

For the most part, we're in agreement on a lot of these points. However, I still disagree that Solidworks is a poor surface modeller or does not do well with plated material. Some of the most complex surfaces you will find are in precision medical equipment - much more complex than any boat hull. SolidWorks is a strong player in this field. For sheet metal - again, clarifying developable vs. non-developable - I would go so far as to suggest SolidWorks is the leading design tool for it's accuracy in devloping flat patterns.

I do not deny any of the claims of ShipConstructor. Sounds to me that it is a purpose built software suite for SHIP construction (hence the name, I presume). I thought I made it clear that I was not suggesting SolidWorks could be used in the complete design of a SHIP. For a 40' FRP cruiser? Certainly. A 20' Aluminum (plated, hard chine) fishing boat? No problem (and is currently in use by more than one of these manufacturers). This includes structural analysis as well as fluid flow analysis. No, not full blown sea-keeping analysis, but that is rarely done on vessels of this size. Rudder efficiency? Most definitely.

The benefits of a parametric modeller for these smaller types of vessels is obvious. Would you suggest someone like an Alumacraft or Larson invest in ShipConstructor? Sounds like overkill to me. These companies need compact solutions that don't require someone with a PhD in physics to operate. A lot of the designers in these companies don't even have marine design experience when they come into the company. The common process for these companies of using a dedicated surface modeller then generating a 2D Cad drawing is cumbersome and fraught with easy-to-make errors. No, these companies are not 3rd world and they DO build from the 2D prints. In addition, their time-to-market with new designs is typically a year or more. For the most part, this has prevented many of them from introducing anything really new.

By the way, the contention I'm making regarding SolidWorks is a personal one. SolidWorks as a corporation has not made any claims that their software would be the end-all, be-all of the marine industry. And while I have my opinions regarding current processes in the design of vessels, I'm not suggesting everyone drop what they're doing and pick up SolidWorks. As a SolidWorks instructor and designer, I feel there is a niche that SolidWorks can fill in the design of watercraft. I intend to pursue that niche and see where it leads.

One thing I think you and I will agree on is that there is a dearth of resources for those who desire to learn more advanced techniques in marine design. I'm sure your company offers training and there may be opportunities for those prusuing N.A. degrees, but why not make this available to those in the earlier stages of their design education? I think it would be useful to have a Westlawn-style training program for state-of-the-art processes. That would include things like Rhino, Maxsurf, Solidworks, etc.


Cheers,

Rick

[Andrew Mason]

For the most part, we're in agreement on a lot of these points. However, I still disagree that Solidworks is a poor surface modeller or does not do well with plated material. Some of the most complex surfaces you will find are in precision medical equipment - much more complex than any boat hull.

I didn't say that Solidworks was a poor surface modeller, I said it was a poor solution for builders of metal boats. I accept that its surface modelling capabilities are as you say, however that doesn't mean that they suit the needs of naval architects.

I do not deny any of the claims of ShipConstructor. Sounds to me that it is a purpose built software suite for SHIP construction ........ Would you suggest someone like an Alumacraft or Larson invest in ShipConstructor?

Absolutely, ShipConstructor is not just for large vessels, it is a scalable, modular system. It is based on AutoCAD, which a large percentage of builders and designers already have and as a result the cost can be extremely low. The base system can be quite small but can scaled up easily to handle more complex vessels and different design functions other than basic structure, such as piping, HVAC and outfitting. An example of a smaller vessel done in ShipConstructor is shown in this link. ShipConstructor has many users building vessels of this scale.

One thing I think you and I will agree on is that there is a dearth of resources for those who desire to learn more advanced techniques in marine design. I'm sure your company offers training and there may be opportunities for those prusuing N.A. degrees, but why not make this available to those in the earlier stages of their design education? I think it would be useful to have a Westlawn-style training program for state-of-the-art processes. That would include things like Rhino, Maxsurf, Solidworks, etc.

I do agree, and that is the reason we set up a website specifically for students of naval architecture or yacht design. This has a range of resources to assist them, including tutorials, technical papers and sample designs. It also has free, unprotected copies of Maxsurf for students. Maybe you can get Solidworks to offer the same.

[Jim@WildDesign]

My first suggestion is to ditch AutoCAD. Unless your into Architecture. Anyways, it's a lot easier to separate the individual components in Rhino. Select an individual component, click on Curves, Curve from Objects, then Duplicate Border or Silhouette, depending on how much feature you want to extract. While you have the curves highlighted, join them and click on File, then click Export Selected. Name it occordingly and save it to whatever file format the suites your needs. I have found that AutoCad is an expensive dimentioning tool. I just get by in Rhino or if I need to get fancy with the dims, I use SolidWorks which is superior to Auto CAD anyway.

[Sonadora]

Originally Posted by Andrew Mason

...free, unprotected copies of Maxsurf for students.

Thanks Andrew. I'll download this and play around with it. I do my best to be careful when referring to other's software without ever using it.

[CGN]

Sonadora,

I hope you let us ask you more about solidworks, i think you comments are very interesting and i think you can bring more to the forum in regard of solidworks, I do agree that solidworks it may not bet the ultimate solution for hull structure modeling, but i think is not far from shipconstructor, is correct to say that shipconstructor is completely geared towards shipbuilding and is an excellent software with a lot of features that help organized and facilitate structural modeling for boats, but i think solidworks can do such, not as efficient as shipconstructor but IMO close enough (as noted not for all sizes but i can see it been used for boast up to 80' maybe more??).

cheers

[Raggi_Thor]

Rick, Sonadora,

I understand that you like SolidWorks, but I must say that it's just another parametric solid modeler :-)
I suppose you need the add on SurfaceWorks to design a hull?

You can do pretty much the same in Alibre Design as in SolidWorks (or Inventor, ProE, SolidEdge etc, etc).

Alibre Design + Rhino + RhinoMarine + BricsCad (AutoCAD clone) will cost less than one license of SolidWorks...

I think Rhino is the best choice if you want one simple affordable program.

BUT, I am not neutral :-)

[Raggi_Thor]

ShipConstructor is priced on a module basis, one modul of "Structure" lets you make 500 parts. You can add modules as you need. 10 modules = unlimited number of parts.
http://www.shipconstructor.com/produ...s/pricing.html
ShipConstructor Structure is 795USD per level (500 parts)
ShipConstructor Pipe is 695USD per level (250 parts)
ShipConstructor HVAC is 795USD per level (250 parts)
http://www.ds-t.com/general-cd/prices/pricelist.pdf

You need AutoCAD to run ShipContrsuctor.
I am quite sure it will run on AutoCAD LT with "LT Extender".
www.lt-extender.com

[Sonadora]

Originally Posted by CGN

I hope you let us ask you more about solidworks

Feel free to ask any questions you may have regarding SolidWorks. I still intend to put together a site showing SolidWorks tips for the marine industry.

Originally Posted by Raggi_Thor

I understand that you like SolidWorks, but I must say that it's just another parametric solid modeler :-)
I suppose you need the add on SurfaceWorks to design a hull?

You most definitely DO NOT need to have SurfaceWorks to design a hull. The only thing you really need SurfaceWorks for is to flatten non-developable surfaces. This is not something that is necessary for FRP construction or metal hulls with flat chines.

Surfaceworks does give you a nice set of tools for hydrostatics and stability, but these can be done in SolidWorks if you are a savvy SolidWorks user.

I'm not at all familiar with Alibre. I do know it is free or cheap. Typically, in industry, companies stay away from these types of programs. Not because they lack functionality but because they lack support. When you pay the money for SolidWorks or ShipConstructor, your not just paying for the software. In fact, you could consider the software to be free, it's the breadth and depth of support that makes the difference. For instance, say you are a very busy manufacturer and you've just installed Alibre on 8 workstations. First of all, that probably took the better part of a day because Alibre doesn't have a network license manager nor does it have the ability to create administrative images. You sit down to run the software and just as it comes up, it crashes. Who do you turn to? Sure, you can call the 800 number for support and maybe get a live person, but what if that doesn't solve the problem? Is there a local Alibre reseller to come on site to help get you going? My guess is no.

In addition, SolidWorks, Autodesk, Formsys, PTC, have huge development staff. This allows them to address a wide range of programming issues for a broad range of industries.

I'm not knocking Alibre's functionality, but I can tell you that industry is not comfortable with small-time operations. By industry I mean the manufacturing industry as a whole.

So, what does that mean for you? Well, if you intend to get employed in the industry, you will want to become expert in the tools currently used. I will acknowledge that Rhino and AutoCAD are currently the tool of the trade. But, for me personally, I'm not looking for a job in the industry. I am, however, interested in developing new solutions for the industry and that is why I feel SolidWorks has a lot of potential.

Cheers,

Rick

[Robert Miller]

Originally Posted by Sonadora

why not make this available to those in the earlier stages of their design education? I think it would be useful to have a Westlawn-style training program for state-of-the-art processes. That would include things like Rhino, Maxsurf, Solidworks, etc.

A course in NA using Rhino does exist. Check out: http://www.macnaughtongroup.com/cadcourse.htm

Best,
Robert

[Sonadora]

That's pretty cool, Robert. Thanks for the link.

[Raggi_Thor]

Originally Posted by Sonadora

...I'm not at all familiar with Alibre. I do know it is free or cheap. Typically, in industry, companies stay away from these types of programs. Not because they lack functionality but because they lack support. When you pay the money for SolidWorks or ShipConstructor, your not just paying for the software. In fact, you could consider the software to be free, it's the breadth and depth of support that makes the difference. For instance, say you are a very busy manufacturer and you've just installed Alibre on 8 workstations. First of all, that probably took the better part of a day because Alibre doesn't have a network license manager nor does it have the ability to create administrative images. You sit down to run the software and just as it comes up, it crashes. Who do you turn to? Sure, you can call the 800 number for support and maybe get a live person, but what if that doesn't solve the problem? Is there a local Alibre reseller to come on site to help get you going? My guess is no.
...

SurfaceWorks/SolidWorks, OK :-)

Alibre is low cost, but not free, depending on versions it's between AutoCAD LT and 50% of AutoCAD. Alibre Design Expert includes features like motion simulations/animations, simple stress analysis (Algor) and more.

Alibre do have local resellers in most European countries.
In Norway we are two resellers with a total of six consultants. I think that is more that SW has.

There is a network licesense manager that is very easy to install, you can have a site license as well, your personal (single) license will work on all your computers as long as you are online the first time you start Alibre. Compared to Autodesk, licensing of Alibre is very, very simple.

Spend five minutes on the review,
http://www.mcadonline.com/index.php?...=280&Itemid=73 :
"If you’re familiar with the likes of Inventor, Solid Edge, and SolidWorks, then you’ll be immediately familiar with the Alibre workflow. "

So, you can use the free Alibre Xpress as a valuable learning tool, and you can use Alibre Design professional or Expert to design the internal structure of boats if you use Rhino or iges files for the hull .-)

Alibre doesn't create surfaces, but it opens native rhino files (3dm) as "surface features". There is also a free Alibre plugin for Rhino to go the other way.

[westlawn5554X]

Hello,

Mr. Andrew Mason, how long does it take maxsurf to approve the download of Maxsurf Academic, as a student?

I am may have input something that turn into error in the system?

Thanks

Student

[Andrew Mason]

Maxsurf Academic user registration should be fairly fast, and certainly no more than 24 hours. I'll check if there is a problem with the site.

[Sonadora]

That's interesting Ragnar.

Last year, Norway had the #1 install site worldwide for number of seats. I don't recall the exact number, but it was several hundred seats.

The main VAR for the area is in Sweden with offices throughout Scandenavia.