Beginner wanting to transition away from pencil designs

Discussion in 'Software' started by sph77, Oct 17, 2013.

  1. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Yes, a big investment. I suggest getting it done by local CNC cutting facilities, long before building/buying one yourself.
     
  2. Petros
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    Petros Senior Member

    Rwatson,

    what you say is true if you already have the skills to use it. too often I have seen people, perfectly good craftsman, get some software and than spend many, many, many hours playing around it. Doing multiple interations, trying to optmize every from and detail, tying out completely different designs going way beyound what they originally intended. Almost like an obsession, you have the tools to analyze it, so you do, over and over and over again.

    This is not my idea of productivity. Especially if what you wanted was a simple skiff, and materials usage and approx center of buoyancy can be worked out with pencil and paper. No, it will not be optimized, but so what? It is just a simple little skiff, kayak, canoe, etc.

    If the OP intention was to develop those skills, than getting the software and learning how to use is something he would do anyway. But it just becomes another distraction from getting on and building your boat if all you want it for is to draw lines to build a model.

    If you already have those skills, and do not over think and over design your small simple skiff, than yes, there would be benefit to do it that way. There is no argument or disagreement here.

    But when taking on a new project, messing around developing a new set of skills working with a new software package can more often than not just turn into another distractions and cause delays on just getting out in your shop and getting started. To have a boat, you must start first!
     
  3. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    Petros, everything you say is true, it can happen. But the reality is that today no one needs special skills to use a computer and if the OP knows how to draw vessels in pencil, which is the only skill he needs, drawing with computer will not cost him much effort. Within a few days he´ll think that the biggest mistake he made is not having started drawing with a computer before.
    I have found people who have not been able to adapt to the computer but these are exceptional cases that do not mean anything.
    Most of us have learned to do things by hand, in pencil, and thanks to that we took much more of our computers.
    Therefore, what we should do is to encourage the OP to start as soon as possible to draw with a computer.
     
  4. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Yes, what you say has some merit.

    I have done the 'just start it and see' approach, and some work satisfactorily
    http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/projects-proposals/historic-home-made-tri-41690.html
    But, I also built two dangerously unbalanced kayaks in my teens, that I sold quickly, to unsuspecting ... 'enthusiasts'


    This 'just do it' methodology is often a good incentive to educate and motivate oneself.

    But there are hundreds of 'pigdog' dinghies around the world that wont row properly, have dangerous bouyancy characteristics and the owner lives with those limitations. Likewise, there are thousands of homemade/designed sailing vessels that are awkward on most points of sail, overweight, under/over engineered, and sit for months unused because they are so onerous to use.

    So, when you get beyond the 'float at any cost' stage, and realise how much it has cost in time and materials, with a bit of bother, you can try to achieve specific design goals by planning and calculation.

    Its very rare that you can get a specific and quantifiable result in a boat design without planning and calculation, and the second most easy way to do the calculations is with specific software. (the first is to buy an existing plan of course )

    I have no problem with those who got the build thrill, the fun of seeing it float - but once you get past that stage in your personal development, spending even several weeks getting the skills in basic design has the potential to save you months of building frustration and years with a badly performing boat.
     
  5. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Aww jeez...you guys are recommending that a small time home builder spends thousands on hardware and software just to build a few duck hunting skiffs.

    Sounds extreme to me. If you gave me those technology thousands Id take that cash wedge and build a new workshop with a pro dust evacuation system , good lighting, full shop length work benches.....become more efficient, have more fun and build better cheaper boats.

    Soon duck hunting skiffs would be stacked up outback and I could sleep well at night knowing that the NSA hasn't hacked into my computer system and stolen my duck skiff designs.
     
  6. TANSL
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    TANSL Senior Member

    I think we are exaggerating the thing. There is free software and is more than enough to design a cayak. Moreover, Michael, if you are able to build a workshop for the price of the most expensive software on the market, I think your future is there: to build low-cost workshops. (I hope you can excuse the joke)
    But we are begging the question. Do not forget that the OP asked for advice to move from manual drafting to computer drawing. He has already made the decision to use computers so we should just try to help him take the step he wants to give.
     
  7. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Yeah, he sure would - and eventually some of them would float properly.

    Anyway, you cant be serious about a lousy thousand bucks - it will only build a couple of little punts, compared to a skills and tool that will last you the rest of your life.
     
  8. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Naw...i may have to call my mom for instructions on how to turn on my new laptop, but I aint dumb.

    For me only the top one percent can call themselves.....designer builder.

    Im not one of them



    But I can scan the internet right now and purchase beautifully drawn small craft plans for peanuts.

    i must then only concentrate on craftsmanship when building.

    Those small boats will stack and float perfectly when put outback, and since I saved cash by not purchasing software , I can use the best materials
     
  9. sph77
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    sph77 New Member

    Thanks for all the software suggestions. I am checking into a basic CAD class at the University. I am not very good with computers so once I get the class completed and really understand the basics of the program I'll move to a boat specific programs. I think the CAD software makes sense if I am going to continue boat building and want to optimize some new designs. I have access to a CNC machine through my neighbor that wouldn't cost me anything to use.

    I'm actually really happy with my current duck hunting boat which is significantly improved over my first boat build. Of course there are things I'd change in it, but it functions great for its intended purpose (stable enough to stand up and paddle, tracks well, light enough to pick up and throw in the back of my truck, etc.). I just have some other designs in my head I'd like to tinker around with.
     
  10. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member


    This is a bit of elitism. So computers are only for the small percentage of the upper marine professional elite ?

    As you have been trying to tell us "its just to build a few duck hunting skiffs"

    Why are you so keen to not have him know in seconds -
    1) the displacement
    2) balance and load points
    3) exact dimensions of the hull and fittings

    These are facts that are critical to prevent badly behaved small craft, and take hours to calculate using non specific software.

    Having the exact sizes and measurements is something I would expect to have just to build a kitchen cupboard, so why not for my boat of any size ?


    Its not rocket surgery ! ;)
     
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  11. pdwiley
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    pdwiley Senior Member

    I think he's referring to the difference between people like PAR, Tom Colvin etc who both design *and* build boats *and* sell both the boats and designs very successfully over many years and - amateurs with a software package and epoxy.

    Any fool can operate software. I should know....

    PDW
     
  12. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member


    Yeah, maybe. But I think he is inferring that computers are a waste of time for anyone but some sort of "elite" master race.

    If I want a plywood box to float with me in it - I am not going to sit down with an abacus and start adding up cross sections till I get the right volume in the right place to make sure it floats level.

    Nor am I going to slice up cardboard boxes to cut out shapes so see what size part is needed to fit inside the box.

    As far as "Any fool can operate software" - thats not true either. Assuming you mean getting useful information out, I can show you any number of people who are mystified by the whole concept.

    These days though, meaningful results can be achieved relatively easily - if you are prepared to spend a bit of time and brain effort.
     
  13. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    Certainly the computer has democratized the field of design.

    Now a competent computer operator can design garbage wheely bins before lunch , surf facebook for inspiration on lunchbreak , then with a few point and clicks, design a beautiful yacht in the afternoon
    I see it everyday

    Just look at this Computer designed lovely ...its Absolutely gorgeous. Gracefull, stunning,trendy, leading edge and very desirable

    A future classic
     

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  14. rwatson
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    rwatson Senior Member

    Without saying so, you are implying the "computer dun-it"

    What you are forgetting is "the computer done lots of versions of it, the client chose the one they liked most, and asked for different version, added their own features ( bar, jacuzzi, big car headlights etc )", then the NA worked out how to make it float.


    Blaming computers for bad design is like blaming missiles for killing people - ignoring the people aiming the weapon and pressing the button.


    Here's the car Homer Simpson designed - and he didn't use a computer at all.
     

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  15. michael pierzga
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    michael pierzga Senior Member

    It did ! Honest...

    Yacht design requires an artistic gift. This gift plus a computer is a design winner.

    So many ugly computer drawn boats in the world...shipyards full.
     
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