PE Licensure in Australia

[Willallison]

The following is a heavily edited version of my original post, as the original contained a quote from a Westlawn student who, for reasons I can't fathom, took exception to me directly cutting & pasting his post, even though I intentionally left his name off. Anyway, the issue is far more important than the personalities involved so....

A recent post by one of the Westlawn students brought to my intention that the Queensland branch of the Board of Professional Engineers gave a presentation regarding amendments to the PE act 2002. In short, the amendments will, according to the original poster, require persons providing professional engineering services to be a Registered Professional Engineer
Queensland.
Further, there is apparently a push for this to become a nationwide requirement.

In short, this has the potential to decimate the Australian yacht design industry, as the requirements for becoming a PE are quite oneorus and would effectively preclude a great number of experienced and otherwise well-quallified people from apllying.
This ought to be a matter for great concern for all designers - obviously especially those operating in Oz, but to all, as we know how these things have an element of 'creep'. Those of you in the US would be well aware of the arguments for and against PE licensure. Fortunately, wiser heads prevailed and designers there have (for now at least) avoided a situation that would have almost certainly decimated their industry.
I suspect that elsewhere, designers are operating in a state of 'ignorant bliss' - or at least have been keeping their heads down and hoping it doesn't happen to them.

My response to the post in question

A real worry, for certain. What was RINA's attitude to this?
Whilst there are many practising designers in Oz - both independant and in company employment - it's difficult to see how they (we!) could put up much of a case as individuals. Industry representative (both design and construction) bodies need to be made aware of the ramifications of this. As many designers as possible then need to lend support to those bodies to go into bat for them.
Thanks for bringing this to our attention....

I'll take this across to Boatdesign.net as well - see if we can rouse up some action

[Eric Sponberg]

I have been at the forefront of the PE effort in the US. I hold a PE license in the state of Connecticut, but I live and practice yacht design in Florida. I was instrumental in convincing the Florida Board of Professional Engineers, in April 2008, to vote that the FBPE will not regulate the profession of engineering with regard to floating vessels. This includes ALL types of craft--commercial and recreational--design and engineering for floating vessels are not regulated in Florida.

The fundamental reason for this stance is that it is practically impossible to regulate the design and engineering of vessels that can cross jurisdictional boundaries. A vessel may be designed by parties outside the state, yet be built and operate in the waters of that state. If something happens with regard to liability, how does the state control or get back to the original designers via the professional engineer licensing thread? It can't. A person in the state may design vessels that are built, owned and operated by people outside the state. If something happens to that vessel outside the state, again, the state where the practitioner lives bears no responsibility or authority over whatever happened outside its borders. This covers the vast majority of boats and craft.

In the US, vehicles of all kinds are not regulated in the engineering profession. This applies to spacecraft, airplanes, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, or any kind of vehicle--because they can be taken across jurisdictional lines.

In addition, there is nothing inherently wrong with the way floating vessels are designed, engineered and built that demands an extra system of qualification on the part of the engineers. The system works fine as it is, why does it need further licensing? We lose many more lives in automobile accidents in this country than we do in boating accidents. And studies have proven time and again that the main reason for death and injury in boating accidents in the US is because people don't wear life jackets (which is already federally required, at least to have on board) and because alcohol was involved. Neither of these causes has anything to do with engineering.

Finally, there are enough regulatory checks and balances in effect (federal laws in the hands of the USCG, classification societies, boat building standards, etc.) that have the effect of legal recourse that the FBPE decided it does not have to add its own hand into the mix.

So, many of us in the US have already gone down that path and have been able to decide that there no reason to go further. Most of the states in the US do not regulate engineering for floating vessels. A few do. As long as there is one state hold out, there will always be a jurisdictional problem. And the licensing power is never going to be taken away from the states. The states use PE licensing as much as possible as a form of guild protectionism--it isn't about protecting the public, it is about protecting their own jobs as much as anything.

In fact, there is a movement in the US right now to increase the academic creditials to require a college masters degree in order to get licensed. That is, a bachelor's degree would not be enough. This is meeting fierce resistance from many, including the strongest proponents of licensing in the naval architecture/marine engineering field.

So, I sympathize with your plight. Hopefully, the above will add fodder to your arguments. There is little need for licensing of floating vessel engineering in the US.

Eric

[Paul Kotzebue]

Originally Posted by Eric Sponberg

In the US, vehicles of all kinds are not regulated in the engineering profession. This applies to spacecraft, airplanes, cars, motorcycles, bicycles, or any kind of vehicle--because they can be taken across jurisdictional lines.

In California there is no exemption for vehicles in the PE laws. However, there is an exemption for manufacturing companies and their employees which include independent consultants. The engineering of any product manufactured in California, including vehicles, is exempt from professional licensing. I believe most states have similar industrial exemptions.

If a yacht designer in California performs engineering services for the owner of a boat, he or she is required to be licensed. If the engineering services are for the company that manufactures the boat, no license is required.

[Willallison]

Thanks Eric - yes, I was aware of your commendable work on the PE issue.
I must say that whilst its only been 24 hrs since I started this thread, I'm surprised that there has been a flurry of replies - particularly from those in OZ. Either there are more PE's operating here than I thought, or the consequences of this haven't sunk in yet....

[MikeJohns]

Well as a PEng it sounds good to me :-)

It's funny Will but I have heard nothing of this at all. It will probably just restrict who can call themselves PEngs not actually require that all transport be signed off by a PEng.

We have a good system with both USL and classification societies taking the liability for design. So if we really wanted to drag liesure vessels into line I suspect it would be far more appropriate to require class compliance.

Any links to any info? I couldn't find anything.

[Willallison]

I'm waiting for clarification Mike. Will PM you...

[Fanie]

Would this have a big effect on new and experimantal craft ?

[LyndonJ]

Don't panic (and remember your towel... Douglas Adams)

From what I gather this was just a reminder that if naval architects work as professional engineers they need to register with IEAUST and apply for PEng status.

Nothing else at all.
But for the non heresay info I reckon you'd better go to the source , who exactly presented the information at that meeting and what're his contact details.

I don't think it make one zot of difference to the boating industry, small boat designers etc. Just if you need a PEng to sign off on a ship mod or design it has to be a PEng.