Yacht Design and Engineering

[edneu]

I wanted to see what people thoughts were concerning the roles of designers versus engineers in pleasure craft design. I know there is a push to credential naval architects and yacht designers, with an emphasis on engineering credentials.

It seems to me that there are two, albeit overlapping roles. The engineers knowledge of the strength of materials and structures, effects of shapes and quantitative analysis of form is critical to a boats development. This is especially apparent on the edge of lightweight composite structures, such as America’s cup yachts, or around the world yachts, or offshore racing powerboats.

Yacht design is a type of industrial design, combining aesthetic, ergonomic, and engineering considerations. While yacht design and marine engineering overlap to a great extent there is a difference in emphasis.

In the more mundane world of production pleasure boats, the structures are far from the outer limits of strength/weight ratios, well within the limits of scantling rules of thumb. Consumer choice is often driven by aesthetics rather than performance. While some engineers can be great aesthetic designers, and some designers may know a lot about engineering, it seems that there are two interdependent roles.

In the automotive industry, both disciplines are employed. A production car shape is not purely developed to minimize wind resistance; there is also a style element. Most racecars in a class appear to be similar, look at a Formula 1 or NASCAR. The production models from these manufacturers are very stylistically different to appeal to consumers. In addition to differences in appearance, production cars are designed with consideration to ergonomics, comfort and ease of maintenance.

If this thread starts to go the way of the ‘Apache is Back’ thread, forget I mentioned it.

[gonzo]

As you mention Formula 1 and NASCAR, it reminded me of boats built under a formula. They too become similar. As time goes by, the changes that give any improvement are minimal. However, aesthetics can change a lot. Styling, particularly above the waterline, are more whimsical. Also, because marinas charge by the foot, we see a trend towards boxy boats.

[Tad]

ed;

The yacht designer decides what and how the boat is to be, the engineer helps make it hang together and work.

Design is the role of weighing alternatives and making decisions. The "vision thing" in some folks terms. Engineering is dealing with these design decisions in a material fashion.

The designer must be responsible for keeping the design together, a unified whole. Very few people understand this work or want to pay for it. But, almost everyone, even Joe Pedestrian, will recognize the result as superior. I would point to the work of L. Francis, Dick Newick, German Frers, and Aage Nielsen.

Unfortunately there are (IMO) very few, "real" yacht designers around. So the production boat industry decided they could use industrial designers instead of yacht designers. (Yacht designers are too expensive) They supplement their industrial designers lack of knowledge with naval architects and engineers. What is the result? Not too inspiring. A collection of parts that imitates the other guys collection, great work, much energy, but it's out of date next year when the colors change.

Look in the "engineering" office of any major yacht builder in the world. Everyone there has some form of training, the Landing School, perhaps an NA from Michigan or Webb, and some engineering degrees from various schools. But no "real" yacht designer, (again that term, sorry). The company either uses an in house industrial designer who works with the marketing people to establish the "vision". Or, they go outside to an independent designer, and this is becoming rare, especially in North America.

Probably every independent yacht design office employs or sub-contracts the services of an engineer. Finding an engineer you can work with and trust is not easy, but it is vital in this world.

My best to all, Tad

[Tad]

Just a note to clarify the above, sorry it it's off topic;

When I refer to "real" designers, I mean people who are not just doing a job. These are people for whom designing yachts is not just an artistic expression, but an intellectual one as well. Their are certain designers whose body of work is all of a piece, it makes a statement about the world, or people, or society, or how we can deal with it all.

Think about the work of Phil Bolger, or Jim Brown, or Dick Newick, or Tom Colvin, or, (lordelpus) George Buehler. These people are putting forward much more than another decent boat, love it or hate it.

To all aspiring designers, go to some place like the Emily Carr Collage of Art and find a voice. Live your life and find something that needs to be said. Then design boats.


Tad

[Timm]

I agree with a lot of what Tad said, although I am wondering where all those "expensive" yacht designers are working! After 12+ years in the world of production boatbuilding, for large companies and small, I have yet to see anything approaching high salaries for those of us designing the boats!

I think much of this discussion has to be tied to the size and type of boat being designed. While I have no problem "engineering" the structures on normal, mid-size pleasure boats, I would not even try to engineer a mega-yacht or a large commercial vessel. I wasn't really trained to do that at the Landing School.

I think there is a role for both in the industry. The reason so many boat companies now use industrial designers is because salesman can't read blueprints! Who runs most boat companies? Salesman! To them, our drawings are just a bunch of lines going everywhere, they can't visualize the boat in 3 dimensions. But, an industrial designer shows them a pretty picture, with color and little people standing on the aft deck, and they can understand it better. I can't tell you how many times I have seen the V.P.'s eyes glass over when looking at an engineering drawing and trying to discuss a problem.

Yacht Designers need to know their limitations, and not be afraid to call in someone with different skills or education when needed. I will gladly admit that I am not an electrical engineer!

[gonzo]

Well Timm, maybe you need to start wearing Dockers and Sperry boat shoes like the designers do . I agree it is difficult to sell good handling characteristics against a floating flop house.

[Timm]

Gonzo, I design boats for a living. Dockers and Sperry boat shoes are waaaaay out of my price range!

[MarkC]

Tad, is George Beuhler not to your liking? (lordelpus)- why say that? Ok, his web site is a pit partisan, discussion go off-topic a bit. Designs are trad/simple for DIY. But as a practicing/earning designer for what...25years? he deserves respect - has his place, could even offer good advice! ?????

Naval architects are already rerquired to have credentials to perform engineering analyses required by law, under long-existing engineering registration.

This is not the same as credentialling design, and in fact design is by definition not engineering.

However, yachts don't have any legal requirements for complex engineering calcs.

[Tad]

Timm;

With the "too expensive" comment I was expressing frustration over the boat manufacturing companies who claim to be unable to afford the 1-2% royalty that independent designers need to stay in business. With few or no production projects, the cost of running a design office rests with custom design. And the cost of custom design goes up. This means more entry level "designer" positions with boat builders, but these positions are rarely working under an experienced mentor, a "real designer" if you will. So, (IMO) the industry reaps what has been sown. In my opinion yacht design is an art, the practice of yacht design should be protected and subsidized by some means, otherwise it will disappear. To be replaced by free plans offered by armatures on the internet.

Mark;

I thought I was being respectful of Mr. Buehler's work in my statement, but I did qualify it with a, "love it or hate it". I question some of Buehler's work on a technical basis. I also feel that perhaps he has to ignore conventional naval architecture and yacht design to continue to put forward his "vision". In my opinion this is not in the best interests of the client.

All the best, Tad

[gonzo]

A design by Herreshoff, for example, has every detail to build a yacht. It includes fasteners, lumber list, rigging and even the hardware. Many amateur desingers are not capable of that level of design. In another thread in this forum, there is a discussion about hydraulic transmissions. Apparently George Beuhler advocates the home building of hydraulics. He claims it is easy. I know that with the pressures involved it can be deadly. This kind of claim is common with amateurs, and they are not followed by a design or specifications. I think amateur design is great because it is less restricted by economics. However, I also think that designers, amateur and professional alike, should restrict their claims to their field of expertise.

[SailDesign]

Quote: "armatures on the internet."

Dontcha just love spell chequers.....

Was at an NSRP meeting recently.

Apparently Kawasaki Heavy Industries is designing a complete new tanker in eight days by using an integrated design suite, though they didn't say how many people were involved. (This level of design is CNC code for steel and all, not just a few drawings.)

Most of the same efficiency of software is available for yachts. I wonder if that sort of productivity increase would do anything for custom design of yachts?

[ErikG]

I think that the time to create a design is more of thinking rather than waiting for the computer. Sure you could "massproduce" designs by altering a few things here and there, but would they look an sail well?

ErikG

[duluthboats]

Much like the tin man, would they have a heart? For a tanker it may not matter, but is a yacht, a yacht, without a heart.

Gary