WishBone Sailing Rig

[brian eiland]

HELP in finding the owner (or ex-owner) of this vessel.

I just posted in the gallery a photo of an unusual wishbone- shaped sailing rig. There were two vessels built similar to this one.

I am in touch with the owner of the 'shorter variation' of this rig, however we would both like to talk with the present owner of this particular 'taller version' of the rig. It was last spotted in the NW (Oregon I believe) USA, and I received some photos of it. However I am unable to contact the gentleman who sent me the photos ,nor the person(s) who have physically sailed on this vessel.
Thanks for any help.

[brian eiland]

The photo had not been posted when I first wrote this message.

It has now:
http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...t=2&thecat=995

[brian eiland]

Still looking for someone who knows a person onboard this vessel............north west USA

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...cat/500/page/1

[SailDesign]

Ouch! My eyes hurt....

Sorry, Brian - couldn't resist.

Steve "North-East and therefore useless"

[brian eiland]

I do understand your observation Steve, but sometimes we have to stay open minded when considerting new ideas.

I'm trying to think back to those days when Olaf Harken was pushing some rather radical ideas with his bi-pod mast design onboard the "Procyon" vessel. I would note that Procyon's rig was aesthetically much more pleasing.

My interest in this other 'wishbone' mast rig is more aligned with the fact that it is an all headsail rig. I was seeking both positive and negative comments from a person who has sailed the vessel.

I was hoping to attach a particular overhead photo shot of Procyon, but I had trouble figuring out how to do that on this forum format, as well as a software problem on my computer that seems to want to keep me captured in their freaking format.

[SailDesign]

Brian,
That was NOT intended as a slight. Really...
I had a couple of sails on Procyon when she was in Newport some years back. An interesting concept, with nothing on board that did not function as desired. The swing keel concept was at the heart of my Black Sea 40 design, and will continue to be my "shifting-ballast-of-choice". The bipod rig was unusual, but functional, and certainly cut down on the amount of wire on the boat. Was it better? Not sure - but I'm not a fan of roller-reefing mains to start with.
You may want to call Gary Hoyt in Newport to discuss mast-aft rigs. He dabbled with those some 16-18 years ago, both on his little Delta, now on the hard in front of the Museum of Yachting, and on various smaller boats. He no longer draws them, but I don't know whether it is from a lack of commercial interest, or from a practicality point of view.
While I don't know Gary very well (read "hardly" - we have talked to each other, but that is about all) he always comes across as someone who would be willing to discuss ideas that he has played with. I don't feel cmfortable just giving out his number, but he is the only "Hoyt, Gary" in the phone book.

As far as new ideas go, I am very open. I admit to having reservations about the mast-aft concept, though. In "borderline" weather (as in "borderline survival"), are you going ot be able to get the head off the wind if you need to? All the rigging on the ass end would seem to indicate you'll have to take stuff head-on without resorting to a bow-thruster. Is the moderately higher efficiency of the rig really going to overcome the extra windage of the "aft shrouds"? Most impoortantly, maybe, are the General Public in their infinite wisdom (probably joking there...) going to accept the concept?

Steve

[brian eiland]

Lets see if this works for now


http://attachments.postoffice.net/tp...ownloadID=DAIB

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by SailDesign

Brian,
You may want to call Gary Hoyt in Newport to discuss mast-aft rigs. He dabbled with those some 16-18 years ago, both on his little Delta, now on the hard in front of the Museum of Yachting, and on various smaller boats. He no longer draws them, but I don't know whether it is from a lack of commercial interest, or from a practicality point of view.
While I don't know Gary very well (read "hardly" - we have talked to each other, but that is about all) he always comes across as someone who would be willing to discuss ideas that he has played with. I don't feel cmfortable just giving out his number, but he is the only "Hoyt, Gary" in the phone book.

You might note that I originally published this mast-aft idea in Multihulls and Yachting and Rudder back in 72-73 time frame. It was shortly after this that Gary came to the Annapolis Show with one of his mast-aft vessels.....so we were working on theme concurrently I guest. I talked briefly with him then, and on several other occassions. I always appreciated his willingness to experiment, and his abilities of getting the word out (I think his backgrd was marketing).

Its a real shame that he has apparantly resisted the computer age, and does not participate on the forums etc. he has such a marvelious way with words. I tried to get several of his associates, neighbors, etc to get him involved with the internet, but I guess the call has gone unheeded.

As far as new ideas go, I am very open. I admit to having reservations about the mast-aft concept, though. In "borderline" weather (as in "borderline survival"), are you going ot be able to get the head off the wind if you need to? All the rigging on the ass end would seem to indicate you'll have to take stuff head-on without resorting to a bow-thruster. Is the moderately higher efficiency of the rig really going to overcome the extra windage of the "aft shrouds"? Most impoortantly, maybe, are the General Public in their infinite wisdom (probably joking there...) going to accept the concept?

I guess I'm just not ready to give up on the idea yet. No doubt it has been a struggle to get any recoqonition of the possibilities of this rig. There are little hints here and there from various trials, but almost all (including Hoyt) placed the mast at almost the very stern and thus were unable to maintain good forestay tension.....bad for maintaining headsail shapes over a wind range.

Public acceptance. Boy there's a tough one.....I'm sure Gary could add a lot to this. I really feel I am going to have to go to Europe to arouse any real interest in my project. In general they are much more open to new ideas.

[brian eiland]

Does anyone remember Hoyt's "Manta" vessel? This vessel had an 'A' frame mast (don't think it was leaning forward) with a 'winged' style hull. I believe this vessel preceded his Delta vessel with the mast aft.

Does anyone have an old brochure of this vessel, or any literature/pictures of same?? I would very much like to receive some photo material on this vessel. The Newport library did not send me anything on this vessel design when I inquired of them on Hoyt's designs.

[SailDesign]

Brian - the boat was built by Tillotson-Pearson in Bristol, RI (could be Warren RI, they're right on the border). That MAY be willing to have a look in the archives for you. Sadly, no contact there any more.
Steve

[SeaDrive]

Phil Bolger has also tried this sort of rig. His experience was that it was capable of great bursts of speed but he and his friends were unable to make it perform consistently. Comments in his books 103 Boat Rigs and Boats With An Open Mind.

The rig used on the Prout catamarans is not so very different, but they include a small main just to make everyone think its a ususal sort of sloop.

Here's a looking design I've looked over but not sailed in Bristol, UK. Photo under link to delta rig yacht. She carries two big genoas and provision for a fisherman's stays'l (?) in between. The owner is a bit cagey about into wind performance but says she goes well on a reach or run.

www.bristolyachtbrokerage.com

[Steve Clark]

This may be one of those ideas that hasn't worked in the past because of material limitations. I think the masts have ended up being very heavy and loaded with spreaders and wires because there is so much compression in the rig. Driven by the need to set a tight forestay on a very long foretriangle. I think this has resulted in rigs that have more weight aloft and rigging drag per square foot of sail area than more conventional sloop or cat configurations.
Problems that won't go away are the inefficiencies of boomless sails when reaching or running and the balance problems( lee helm) that occurr when shortening sail.
Bipod masts never appealed to me. Once you got the luff wire of the main tight enough, the compression on the spars made them heavy. Annd you still have more windage than you want.
SHC

[brian eiland]

Sorry going to have to be very brief answer this morning;

Originally Posted by Steve Clark

This may be one of those ideas that hasn't worked in the past because of material limitations. I think the masts have ended up being very heavy and loaded with spreaders and wires because there is so much compression in the rig. Driven by the need to set a tight forestay on a very long foretriangle. I think this has resulted in rigs that have more weight aloft and rigging drag per square foot of sail area than more conventional sloop or cat configurations.

In past experiments this does appear so...excessive heavy rigging, etc. But I don't think you would describe Procyon's rig in those terms. The legs of the mast replaced the spreaders and shrouds of the traditional rig. This rig actually turned out lighter in weight to the traditional rig.

I don't understand your reference to a 'very long foretriangle' . Neither Procyon nor my mast-aft rig carries a longer forestay. Note that my masthead is located approx where the traditional sloop rig would place it. I will have more to say on another related issue concerning the superority of some aft-raked mast rigs (and with long forestays) (and from actual full size sailing experiences)

Problems that won't go away are the inefficiencies of boomless sails when reaching or running and the balance problems( lee helm) that occurr when shortening sail.

Where do you derive this conclusion that boomless sails are more inefficient? In fact, very often the boom misforms the ideal shape of the mainsail....in addition to other misgivings. Granted a boomless sails (mainsail) may be more of a challenge to get really sheeted ideally, but the payoffs can be significant. Otherwise just get it close as most 'cruisers' do and be happy about not having to dodge that big heavy swinging boom.

Balance problems?? I assume you are referring to my mast aft design? This is a ketch variation, not a sloop or cutter. I venture to guess this rig will not only balance better, but have a greater range of balance positions, and not be one that will drive your bows down with such force when off the wind.

Bipod masts never appealed to me. Once you got the luff wire of the main tight enough, the compression on the spars made them heavy. And you still have more windage than you want.

Bipod mast didn't necessarily appeal to me either, but Procyon's one is rather elegant. Roller furling mains do require a little more luff tension than std ones. But this load is actually trying to 'spread' both legs of the bi-pod apart. So our 'inner spreaders' (cross spreaders) are only going to have to resist a pulling apart of the two legs (tension load). These inner spreaders can now be made of the newer hi-tech synthetics, and thus smaller in cross section and drag.

Another view of the subject might be that these bi-pod mast sections are pre-disposed to bend in one direction, so restraining them is easier than trying to keep a straight single mast tube in column that wants to bend in either direction when under a compressive load.

So now do we really end up with more rigging drag??

Couple of other points:
Yes because the rigging is more aft than conventional it will induce a weathering effect. But look at where the 'heavy weather' sail is rigged.....on the inner forestay.....balance.

Procyon's extra rigging drag was more forward inducing a lee helm...not a feature one wishes in very heavy air

And at anchor this rig will have less tendency to sail around its mooring as it has its drag center aft of its hull center.

Wing and wing downwind is easily accomplished.

I did not like the fact that Procyon's headsail had to be self tacking and thus non-overlapping. I felt this feature lost much of the extra efficency potential of the headsail.

AO Smith's paper on......sorry have to go

[grob]

If you are going to all the trouble of having a bipod mast why not put a main on each mast?