WishBone Sailing Rig

[gar37bic]

PS - You've owned 9 --- what? !?!?! was that women, horses, boats, or all three?

[brian eiland]

I'm sure this vessel reference has been posted before, but in looking thur some old postings of mine, I did not see it in these particular discussions

50 SMG Catamaran
http://www.sail-the-difference.com/D...28.0.html?&L=1

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

I have recently received some Emails that reference a couple other examples of 'wishbone', or 'bi-pod', or 'A-frame' shaped masts. So I thought I would post them here for reference to the discussions.


2)Kolika monohull motorsailer
http://sail-works.com/KOLIKA/html/kolika_10.html
...have a look thru the picture gallery,

I was looking thru the picture gallery again and noted his treatment at the intersection of the mastheads...interesting

[Spiv]

I originally posted this in a different forum, but this is the proper place to discuss my new rig.

Well, it has taken a long time, but my new boat design is nearly complete.
I engaged Richard Woods as my consultant in the design of the hull.
He has patiently guided me while I designed the sailing rig and the accommodation and he has been exceptionally professional in his approach to the hull design.

Brian, you can see a lot of your thinking in this rig with a mixture of other ideas of mine and from pictures. I hope you will give me your blessing, but please feel free to comment on any aspect of it.

Here are the drawing of the rig.
While I know that they will not suit every taste, they are just what I want: a mainless rig that is easy to handle single handed and that I can safely lower in a minute to go under bridges.

The two fore sails will be on 'Stay Furlers', since the forestay are Dyneema rope, they can be bent over the trampoline when I lower the mast. They do not reef, so they will be either in or out according to the wind.
The mizzen is on a conventional Furler that can be reefed.
Lastly there is a storm sail that can be hanked in the unfortunate case I get caught in a gale.

The Genoa has a self tacking track on the roof, close to the mast and the Mizzen has a similar system on a targa bar not drawn yet.

There you go, I reopen the subject for all to participate in the discussion...

[Pericles]

Returning to this thread this afternoon, I went back to the start to refresh my memory. At #82 in May last year, I suggested a dipping lugger rig as a method of reducing top hamper in a blow. I promptly forgot about this until today, but last November a 37' Mounts Bay lugger set off from Cornwall and sailed to Melbourne with a stop over in SA for Xmas.

http://www.petegoss.com/mystery/blog.php

About 4 days out from Melbourne, they were hit by a freak wave.
http://yachtpals.com/spirit-of-mystery-4102

A dipping lug sail might be a useful rig for a catamaran after all. The Knights of Malta sailed lateen rigged galleys against the Ottoman navy.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...panto_1571.jpg

A carbon fibre wing shaped spar and bipod mast with Dyeema cordage would be an interesting experiment, avoiding the bad tack" with the sail pressing against the mast.

A crabclaw sail is another option? In his book Sail Performance, C. A. Marchaj records the results of wind tunnel testing of a number of primitive and modern sailing rigs, including a number of different configurations of crab claw sails. While the upwind performance of the crab claw was less than modern high aspect ratio sails, the reaching and running performance was markedly superior, and Marchaj rated the crab claw sail as the top overall performer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_claw_sail

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Pericles

...A crabclaw sail is another option? In his book Sail Performance, C. A. Marchaj records the results of wind tunnel testing of a number of primitive and modern sailing rigs, including a number of different configurations of crab claw sails. While the upwind performance of the crab claw was less than modern high aspect ratio sails, the reaching and running performance was markedly superior, and Marchaj rated the crab claw sail as the top overall performer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crab_claw_sail

You bring back up an interesting summation that Marchaj arrived at...other than hard on the wind the tall fractional rigged sloop is definitely less than optimum for all other points of sail....the lower aspect-ratio sail plans being significantly superior.

Yet everytime rig discussions come up, most folks drift into this mind set that 'fractional sloop rigs are THE BEST'

[yipster]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

the lower aspect-ratio sail plans being significantly superior.

hi Brian, thats not exactly well put and basicly untrue
this quote from http://proafile.com/view/weblog/comm...ons_crab_claw/ explains it better

Marchaj theorized that the crab claw develops lift in a different way than the standard Western Bermudan. It operates in what is called *vortex lift* mode, which creates powerful spinning tornadoes of air off the leading edge. The spinning vortexes are zones of intense low pressure, and thus lift is created.

to get that vortex lift from the delta the aspect ratio has to be small and high stalled
so the lower aspect ratio delta alone is actually bad
yet the extra vortex lift it creates about doubles the sail power
at least thats how i read it...

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by yipster

hi Brian, thats not exactly well put and basicly untrue
this quote from http://proafile.com/view/weblog/comm...ons_crab_claw/ explains it better...

Nice reference Yipster. I was speaking in generalities. Its been a VERY long time since I read Marchaj's book(s), but I do recall his bringing up the low AR superority in quite a number of cases, not only just the crabclaw rig. Numerous references, charts, diagrams, and test if I remember correctly....almost surprised me

[Pericles]

The John Rowland "Over the top" for coming about, http://proafile.com/view/weblog/comm...ons_crab_claw/ suggests a quick trip to a hang gliding shop to purchase a Rogallo wing, might be a good move. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogallo_wing

That and a sled kite for down wind might be all the Dacron ever needed.
http://www.blueskylark.org/zoo/single/sled/

BTW, Wikipedia also had this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbas_Ibn_Firnas

[yipster]

bang, again an hour -with pleasure- reading up all those links
wonder if a hangglider was ever used for sailing a boat
made a rough wavepiercer proa sketch, shunting be easy'r too
than added a swath leg under the bench/house ama for comfort and more
eh, back to Brian's WishBone Sailing Rig

[gar37bic]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

I was looking thru the picture gallery again and noted his treatment at the intersection of the mastheads...interesting

Thanks for the pic - I missed that one before, and it saves me climbing the mast! I wondered how it was set up, up there.

I'm presently negotiating to buy this boat. It's been orphaned for a couple of years, and has suffered a bit. However at this point it looks like it is recoverable. It's also a unique boat with a huge complement of systems - electrical, hydraulic, electronic, ... All that affects the marketability of such a boat.

If the deal goes through, I would love to have anyone who is interested come and look at it, and (once it is ready) to come and help me figure out how to sail it! (Not far from Fall River MA)

[gar37bic]

Originally Posted by Pericles

The John Rowland "Over the top" for coming about, http://proafile.com/view/weblog/comm...ons_crab_claw/ suggests a quick trip to a hang gliding shop to purchase a Rogallo wing, might be a good move. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogallo_wing

That and a sled kite for down wind might be all the Dacron ever needed.
http://www.blueskylark.org/zoo/single/sled/

BTW, Wikipedia also had this. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbas_Ibn_Firnas

Your second pic of the 'wishbone rig' reminded me of SailRocket for some reason - probably just the sail shape: http://www.sailrocket.com/

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by yipster

...wonder if a hangglider was ever used for sailing a boat
made a rough wavepiercer proa sketch, shunting be easy'r too
than added a swath leg under the bench/house ama for comfort and more

Something like this Yipster?
Tilting Rig Design by Chris White

...or Powerfoil sails

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Kojii

The new owner of Relentless found the performance in heavy winds to be unbalanced and has shortened the mast (to just above the notch) and canted it aft about the same it was canted forward and put a whole new rig on it (double furler with wishbone boom) after adding the skeg-hung rudder. Initial sail tests in the harbor seem promising - longer foot, lower CE, less compression on mast. More to follow I am sure. The experiment continues...Kojii

A broker out west just sent me this photo of the new 'shortened rig' .

What a butcher job !!

....the new and the old

[Kojii]

Watched Art test it inside Ediz Hook. Went fine. He has some experience with this sort of rig - http://www.holopunicanoes.com/hss.html
The vessel did not tolerate the tall rig in heavy wind, nor needs it to move well. It was just overkill. Designer pared it down himself on hull # 2 (Orca).
Looks odd, but that's what they said about the Marconi rig once upon a time.
He does drastically reduce compression on mast legs, since it is now canted aftward. CE already low, is now lower still. For the experimental and adventurous sailor surely. Which eliminates most sailors...

K