WishBone Sailing Rig

[yipster]

very good find Guilermo !
informative and handy, thanks for sharing

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Brian,
Did you know this?:
http://www.barefootsworld.net/windwa...ilingcalc.html
What's your opinion?
I've just found it.
Cheers

Yes Guillermo, this was brought to my attention a couple of years ago. Reference posting #20 & #21 of this thread:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...2&postcount=20
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...3&postcount=21

[hk996]

Guilermo, how did you find that information? thanks for sharing it!

[Guillermo]

Be careful about the trustability of that calculator. The guy dismasted. Have a look at:
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...1&postcount=34
and, in general, to thread 113491
Cheers.

[brian eiland]

As I mentioned before I felt this discussion belong under the AftMast subect thread rather than here. But I felt I needed to defend the posting in both subject threads in case someone should not be aware of the other discussion

Originally Posted by Brian

Did you find that in his logs? I've not read them as there appears to be almost no mention of the sailing capabilities of the vessel.

Originally Posted by Guillermo

Yes, he says that somewhere, but it's difficult to find among the very long logs. The general feeling I got is that the boat as a whole was a complete disaster (And I have my doubts about the mental sanity of the man....)

As I wrote you in a private email, I also questioned the sanity of this gentleman, but that’s all another subject.

When I was first made aware of his original website and his rig calculator, I was very surprised at the exact wording on his site that copied the wording right out of my website verbatim. Here is a gentleman who never once had contacted me about this subject he had such a great interest in, nor ask any permission of me, nor given any references on his site back to mine. I wrote him a letter about these matters, which he chose to ignore answering, and instead took down some of his web pages from his site.

In that letter I also expressed some concerns about his interpretation of my design. I was particularly concerned about his lack of a resistance element to the forward force that will be generated by the upper aft facing jumper strut over which the masthead backstay passes. In contrast I have provided a triangulated (diamond) jumper strut arrangement to help counter this forward pressing force. I have also provided two additional backstays at this point to counter forestay loads.

…photo of vessel under discussion: http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/6863/cat/500/ppuser/399

In other words I was concerned about his variation of my design. But since he had chose not to communicate with me about my concerns, and since he had already built it, there was not much left to do but wish him the best. Maybe his mast section would stand up to the loads, but I seriously doubted it. I was also concerned about his disproportionably long, lower mast panel.

Another of my concerns was his use of three headsails. To my way of thinking this placed the headsails too close together to be practical. We know from past cutter arrangements that should we have the headsail and the staysail too close to one another it became difficult to maintain the trim on both such that they were always fully engaged. Plus, it became more problematic in a tacking situation. And he obviously had not sailed enough to recognize the balance that can be had with a jib-mizzen combination.

Your reference to the rig being replaced with a conventional one was rather brief, leaving the impression that this mast aft experiment was a total failure.

Originally Posted by Guillermo

quotes: The guy wrecked close to Malaga…..He rerigged later with a conventional bermudan rig……Be careful about the trust ability of that calculator. The guy dismasted….The general feeling I got is that the boat as a whole was a complete disaster

I don’t think we can assume this just yet with the VERY limited information we have. All I see so far is a failure of a piece of ordinary rigging, “a Norseman backstay fitting failed, crystallized in the threads." That could happen with any rig. Certainly it appears to be a backstay component, and if he had only a single backstay with this 3-headsail arrangement that would be a real problem. But lets not condemn the mast aft concept in general based upon this flawed design experiment.

And finally I might even have to give some credit to this fellow. At least he went out there AND DID IT, more than can be said for many dreamers

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

The new owner of the shorter version of these two wishbone rigs recently sent me this note:
message: I noted your thread on rigging loads. Enlightening in a candle in the wind sort of way. Thanks.

The designer of the Orca and Relentless Wishbone rigs was a Boeing engineer. I have not been able to find any of his published writings and did not know if you have a way to search the lit that I cannot.
Fred Greenway was his name. Died last year. Built this in 90 so should have been active in 60's and through maybe the 70's.

On occasion it seems to be more like an aircraft than a ship, but at times these forms are very much in sync Fair dinkum, Kojii Bangs

Just today there were some photos of the taller of these two rigs posted by Mike Johns at this other subject thread.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...6&postcount=27

...short rig under sail (on this subject thread)
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...0&postcount=39

A gentleman from Calif recently contacted me about his potential purchase of this taller rigged version. I put both gentlemen in touch with one another. We will see if we get future contributions from either of the two?

Opps, turns out Mike did not post the photos but rather a reference to a 'for sale' listing. Since these can disappear in short order, I'll extract some of the photos and post them here.

[brian eiland]

Just happened across this new vessel proposal by the folks who did the Dynarig. Look, it has two bi-pod masts

Rainbow Warrior III
http://www.gdnp.nl/project/index.php...iscboot&boot=4

[yipster]

thanks for sharing and very interesting study, with such a rig and a heli who will suggest rainbow warior III may perhaps be a cat

[RHP]

mispost

[Squidly-Diddly]

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/boa/425155864.html

[RHP]

Thats was my mispost...

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/listi...ck&searchtype=

[kevin murphy]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Just today there were some photos of the taller of these two rigs posted by Mike Johns at this other subject thread.
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...6&postcount=27

...short rig under sail (on this subject thread)
http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/sho...0&postcount=39

A gentleman from Calif recently contacted me about his potential purchase of this taller rigged version. I put both gentlemen in touch with one another. We will see if we get future contributions from either of the two?

Opps, turns out Mike did not post the photos but rather a reference to a 'for sale' listing. Since these can disappear in short order, I'll extract some of the photos and post them here.

This wishbone design sailboat is now anchored at Marina Bay, in Richmond CA. It was not there in October, it has been there since I returned to Richmond a couple of weeks ago. I am a newbie to sailing, except for small boats on middle sized lakes in MN, so what do I know? But I saw this boat anchored at Marina Bay, and it is amazing. So I Googled "wishbone mast" (lucky guess) and ended up here.

The boat is very racy looking, looks like a totally custom design to this untrained eye, and it looks like it is built for speed. Performance? I have no clue. But I'm happy to see it here, not as a sailor but as someone who appreciates good design. The boat is beautiful.

I have no idea who owns it, but the Harbormaster at Marina Bay in Richmond CA could maybe help you out.

Someone put some serious money into this boat, by all appearances, so if you are really interested in this design, a follow-up would probably be rewarding.

[brian eiland]

There is a new owner of the tall rig version who only recently contacted me a few days ago (11/28/07). Hopefully he will visit this site and make some contributions to the discussion...I told him of this site

[multihullsailor]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Still looking for someone who knows a person onboard this vessel............north west USA

http://www.boatdesign.net/gallery/sh...cat/500/page/1

Brian,

She was offered for sale recently on Yachtworld as a North Pacific 47 called "Relentless" lying outside of San Francisco, $ asking price equivalent of €47,000. I was / am interested in her, but never had any feedback from the broker and she is not offeed on Yachtworld any more. Have seven pictures from her, exterior and interior, if you are interested I could email them

Best regards from sunny Cape Town
Roger

[brian eiland]

Hi Roger,
She has been purchased by this gentleman:

Hello Brian... My name is Art Lane. I recently purchased Relentless
which is the tall mast version of your 47' wishbone design, a North
Pacific 47. I live and sail around San Francisco Bay and will be
moving myself and the boat to port Townsend, WA this
Spring. Thank you for designing this fabulous craft. I am outfitting
it as a durable cruiser. Can you provide info on the builder, specs,
schema, history or specific wisdom? I'm particularly eager for a
comparison to the short mast version. Strictly for your amusement
I'll send you some photos of an over the mast flip tacking rig I
designed and use routinely, based on the crab claw sail.
Regards... Art

I made him aware of this subject posting, and hopefully he will contribute later on. I also corrected his misinterpetation that I designed this vessel, but rather it was a gentleman who worked for Boeing Aircraft