Why a Yawl or Ketch instead of a sloop

[BeauVrolyk]

Originally Posted by timothy22

I think Steve saved the ketch rig for the bigger boats.
http://www.dashewoffshore.com/do_beowulf.asp
I have never seen a Sundeer or Deerfoot ketch. (Now, isn't this the bst way to ensure a picture of one shows up?)

Yup. Here's a picture. The Dashew boats are not "pretty" (IMHO); but they sail very well and are tough. Note how far apart the two masts are and how nearly equal in height.

I like his sloops better.

B-))

[Milan]

Originally Posted by BeauVrolyk

… the Herreshoff Rosenante…

Yes, good boat. There is also a bigger version, Arion, designed by Sidney Herreshoff in 1951.

[BeauVrolyk]

Originally Posted by Milan

Yes, good boat. There is also a bigger version, Arion, designed by Sidney Herreshoff in 1951.

Very interesting boat. I great up around Kettenburg boats, build in San Diego through the late '50s and '60s. They had a hard sharp turn at the garboard plan, like this boat does. Almost all of them had broken ribs at the garboard. Steam bent oak just couldn't go around a corner like that. What are the ribs built of in this boat? Is she cold molded? Glass?

B

[Milan]

Originally Posted by BeauVrolyk

Very interesting boat…

Yes, I like her a lot. She was far ahead of her time. No ribs, she’s been built in a solid glass, one of the first. I think that she was possibly biggest fiberglass boat at the time.

[Milan]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

What do you call that vessel that appears in the website you referenced??

That’s Beowulff, newest generation of Dashew’s sail yachts. Beowulff is further development of Steve’s style – hull is proportionally even narrower, sails have even bigger roach. They are built in aluminium, and production series Sundeer’s are in balsa-core sandwich.

Originally Posted by timothy22

… I have never seen a Sundeer or Deerfoot ketch. ..

Some Sundeer’s were built as ketches. You can see some of them under “design milestones”, on the Dashew’s site. Deerfoot’s are proportionally wider and have a single mast.

[Milan]

Modern, really fast racing schooner, Elliott’s Primo:
http://www.elliott-marine.com/primo.html

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by BeauVrolyk

Regarding multi-hulls, I'm really not a fan. I know that this stirs people up a lot, but I've been at sea in way too many really terrible storms to want to ride in a boat that is difficult to depower and floats upside down far better than right side up. I know there are multihulls that have been through a lot, but there is also a really good reason that all the serious races (and most smart people) require an escape hatch in the bottom of the multihull, so you can get out when it's upside down. (Ultra beamy mono-hulls require this too - like the Volvo boats.) This is off the topic of split rigs, but I don't like being upside down and stuck that way.

I might suggest you have a look thru this subject thread;
Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers
...and postings #15, 22, and 91

I adore classic schooners and split rigs - they are amazingly beautiful. Also, the vast majority of the time most of us aren't sailing either directly upwind or downwind, we're reaching. When reaching the split rig doesn't suffer (as much) from the interference between the rigs. Having said that, I still think that for a fixed amount of sail area, the sloop will always perform better. But, that's probably not the point. As Brian points out in these beautiful pictures - "performance" is not a singular concept. There is performance, meaning the speed and efficiency of the rig. Then, there is "performance" meaning what does it do to your heart strings. In this latter sense, these beautiful old schooners are VERY high performance.

The point I try to make is SO VERY OFTEN all conversations about rigs revert to this idea that the SLOOP IS SUPERIOR. Have a look at this cruising man's evaluation, and then tell me again that he is better off with a sloop?
A LIVEABOARD CRUISER FOR THE REAL WORLD

...I don't like being upside down and stuck that way

Perhaps you would prefer to be on this salty, sea-going trawler yacht

[BeauVrolyk]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

I might suggest you have a look thru this subject thread;
Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers
...and postings #15, 22, and 91

Thanks for the lead, I read it, didn't change my mind at all. As this is off thread here, I'll leave it at that

Originally Posted by brian eiland

The point I try to make is SO VERY OFTEN all conversations about rigs revert to this idea that the SLOOP IS SUPERIOR. Have a look at this cruising man's evaluation, and then tell me again that he is better off with a sloop?
A LIVEABOARD CRUISER FOR THE REAL WORLD

I never said a sloop was "Superior" I said it had "higher performance". There's large difference between the two. If you don't have the strength and experience to handle a large sloop you shouldn't have one. As I've become older (57 now) split rigs look better and better. When I was 39 sailing to New Zealand with my family, I chose a yawl. When I went sailing by my self in my early 30s I choose a sloop. The point, to repeat myself, isn't superiority. It is performance.

A good seaman will choose a rig that pulls the load that needs to be hauled, is easily managed by the crew available (even when they are sick or injured) and is enjoyable to sail (the reason we go at all). There will be completely different rigs chosen, even by the same sailor, depending upon the purpose. It is simply absurd to think that there is an absolute "best" rig no matter what conditions, crew, and goal.

Having said all that, as long as I'm able, I'll tend to choose higher performance at the cost of more work for the crew. Thus, the choice of a sloop over a split rig.

Originally Posted by brian eiland

Perhaps you would prefer to be on this salty, sea-going trawler yacht

I hate powerboats. But, eventually, I'll be so old that I won't be able to haul up the sails without a heart attack. Then, I'm sure I'll go out on a trawler to watch the sailboat races, muttering over and over how much I hate being too damn old to sail. All boats have their purpose - even powerboats.

I did like watching this one roll!!!

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by BeauVrolyk

Thanks for the lead, I read it, didn't change my mind at all.

While you were over on that subject thread did you notice this beauty...a sloop rigged motorsailer with twin engines.
Monohull verses Multihull powersailers / motorsailers

Or here is another vessel design I always thought was a beauty, a Mercer 44, generally yawl rigged
http://www.sailingtexas.com/smercer44a.html

[brian eiland]

Originally Posted by BeauVrolyk

..I hate powerboats. But, eventually, I'll be so old that I won't be able to haul up the sails without a heart attack. Then, I'm sure I'll go out on a trawler to watch the sailboat races, muttering over and over how much I hate being too damn old to sail. All boats have their purpose - even powerboats.

I did like watching this one roll!!!

BTW, that posting about the trawler wasn't suppost to be for this thread. I had it in mind for something else and I accidently included it here

[brian eiland]

Here's another split rig design I liked, the Countess 44. I made reference to her here

See, I'm not just a multihull guy. I loved monohulls when they had some STYLE...some sheer and balance.

At one of the Annapolis shows one year, a friend commented that ALL of the newer fiberglass sailing yachts just looked like so many floating CLORAX bottles.

[BeauVrolyk]

Originally Posted by brian eiland

At one of the Annapolis shows one year, a friend commented that ALL of the newer fiberglass sailing yachts just looked like so many floating CLORAX bottles.

Brian, I could not agree more! I think the charter business has moved yacht design in a terrible direction. Most charterers are not good sailors, never intend to sail over-night, never intend to sail in winds above 15 knots, and never intend to sail in cold air and water. Unfortunately, a lot of charterers end up sailing in heavy winds and big seas in boats that are completely unsuited to those conditions. A lot of bad things happen.

I talked to some guys from The Moorings and they said the charterers all want the same thing (at least more than 90%) of them. They want 1) a head in each stateroom with a shower, 2) a double berth in every stateroom, 3) a large cockpit for entertaining while at the dock/anchor (in other words while sitting vertically) 4) a large galley with stove/oven and fridge/freezer 5) auto furling sails of various descriptions that allow the cruisers to avoid ever doing any "work" (which most of us would call sailing). It was sad. There is NO demand for a boat that is seaworth, can be comfortable at sea in large swells, and will keep you safe in a force 10 gale. No demand whatsoever.

When you try to build the "perfect" cruising boat for The Moorings, you're designing something quite different from the "perfect" cruising boat for most of us. It turns out that the least expensive boat with the lowest maintenance and all the characteristics that The Moorings customer wants, looks a lot like a white clorox bottle, that's fatter in the ass than the bow.

This is really sad, as so may people are turned off by the terrible sailing characteristics of things like Hunters, Benneteaus, and Jeaneaus. These poor folks would love to sail on something strong and stable, but they never get the chance. Sad, really sad.

B

[john schroeder]

I am just a nubie on this computer conversation but I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I thank Brian Eiland for turning me on to it! I own a 57ft Bill Tripp aluminum yawl twin boards draws 5.5 ft 63 ft mast and has logged hundreds of thousands of miles I have been through one hurrican and several storms that I have heard others calling in maydays. The point of this is in any wind condition I am able to keep her moving with various sail combinations and in my opinion that is what saves most vessels from capsizing . After that a strong hull watertight bulkheads and experiance . But the designer gets the real credit. I have been a fan of Bill Tripps have owned several of his boats because when I find something that works I have stuck with it and also older designs, I have found are seaworthy..... maybe not fast with lots of room but they were designed when people didnt get lifted out when the weather got bad. Since we have GPS and air rescue ,weather reporting 24 hrs there are more people serviving that shouldnt have . (sorry thats harsh )but that causes more designs that shouldnt go forward to breed now we have boats that I look at at boat shows and frankly wouldt go out in the Cheasepeke bay on a nce day and in most places there I can walk home. I am angry that there are no penaltys for designers that build products that are dangerous. If you want to build somthing on the edge it should be like the aircraft industries and any new design be registered experamental!

[BeauVrolyk]

Originally Posted by john schroeder

I am just a nubie on this computer conversation but I have really enjoyed reading this thread. I thank Brian Eiland for turning me on to it! I own a 57ft Bill Tripp aluminum yawl twin boards draws 5.5 ft 63 ft mast and has logged hundreds of thousands of miles I have been through one hurrican and several storms that I have heard others calling in maydays. The point of this is in any wind condition I am able to keep her moving with various sail combinations and in my opinion that is what saves most vessels from capsizing . After that a strong hull watertight bulkheads and experiance . But the designer gets the real credit. I have been a fan of Bill Tripps have owned several of his boats because when I find something that works I have stuck with it and also older designs, I have found are seaworthy..... maybe not fast with lots of room but they were designed when people didnt get lifted out when the weather got bad. Since we have GPS and air rescue ,weather reporting 24 hrs there are more people serviving that shouldnt have . (sorry thats harsh )but that causes more designs that shouldnt go forward to breed now we have boats that I look at at boat shows and frankly wouldt go out in the Cheasepeke bay on a nce day and in most places there I can walk home. I am angry that there are no penaltys for designers that build products that are dangerous. If you want to build somthing on the edge it should be like the aircraft industries and any new design be registered experamental!

John, thanks for this. I love the old Tripp designs too. But I have to disagree about the "experimental" designation for boats. I actually think the government should stay entirely out of it. The argument made is that if we have to go save your ass with a helicopter, you're accepting our help and our money, so we get to regulate you. I think I'd take the alternative: you don't rescue me and I won't let you regulate me. This is from a guy who has been pulled out of the Pacific twice (and I wouldn't have made it either time without the Coast Guard). I know I'd be dead right now if not for them, but I still deeply resent their assumption that they can regulate me for my own safety. When I choose to risk my life, it's my choice. Stupid people, including me, should be allowed to die in any way they choose - including sail boat racing.

Just my 2 cents.

[john schroeder]

ouch...I have to disagree with your disagreement But thanks for understanding my love of Tripps. I agree with the I want to take the risk stay out of my life senerio but I dont agree with guys taking the risk in crap racing boats that cant stay together in the first place being rescued on my dime and I think it unfair . Drag race cars dont use the roads we drive to work on or the rescue group that civilians use so why do extreme racers? Ok I dig the sport but I dig more getting home on my own keel and that was what this was about so lets start a thread about should boats be regulated or???????? designed not to come apart when mom and the kids go to sea! a . so we dont have to rescue them b. so we dont have the goverment getting in our s--t and C. so some poor sot does not have to leave his warm bed a 3am and hang on a wire to pull some a hole out of the ocean cause his carbon fiber banana boat broke. Im just sayin its you that got pulled out for a f up and we are getting regulated because of it how fair is that and you didnt learn from what your saying. or you have really really bad luck. I dont know what happened in you case so I cant judge . Im not into any regulations but if it is an"" industry"" and it sells to the general public and its not designed to do what they claim it can and its not built as strong as they claim and people drown because they trust the claim????? I think designers should stand up for them selves and and demand a regulation or a board otherwise the government will step in and they are the ones that tested the dory and found it not seaworthy! (course they didnt load it with a ton of cod before the test! and so it was .