Why no aerodynamic control/stabilizer surfaces on high speed cats?

[RatliffFranklin]

Isn't it past time for designers of fast cats to start incorporating vertical stabilizers, canard wings, and other variable geometry aerodynamics into fast cats? or V-hulls for that matter?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...rcraft/f2y.htm

125 knots on the ocean in 1953.

[kach22i]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...rcraft/f2y.htm

A supersonic flying boat fighter

I don't think you can take one platform with a different mission and just apply it to another type of craft altogether. However let's for argument's sake take a look at some high-speed catamarans and see if there is a complete lack of aerodynamic consideration just to stay on topic.


http://www.ferries.gr/dodekanisos/ferries.htm


http://www.marad.dot.gov/education/a...%20gallery.htm


http://www.pride2.org/NewPrideSite/E...ach091700.html


http://www.mahle.com/C125705E004FDAF...FJGYT089MARSEN


http://www.hornblowermarine.com/highspeed.html

Images above found doing a Google "Image" search:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...-8&sa=N&tab=wi

I see no fins, wings and other aerodynamic control surfaces in the images above. I also do not see these type of control surfaces on hovercraft that use waterjets or water screw propellers and SES (surface effect craft) ships using water type propulsion.

If form follows function, then there must be a solid reason for this, right?

http://www.hoverclubofamerica.org/fo...opic=779&st=90
http://www.hovercraft-museum.org/vt1.html

In other words, VT1, unlike fully amphibious hovercraft, could corner without struggling to avoid skidding sideways.

http://www.hoverclubofamerica.org/fo...460&hl=surface

[RatliffFranklin]

Originally Posted by kach22i

I don't think you can take one platform with a different mission and just apply it to another type of craft altogether. However let's for argument's sake take a look at some high-speed catamarans and see if there is a complete lack of aerodynamic consideration just to stay on topic.


http://www.ferries.gr/dodekanisos/ferries.htm


http://www.marad.dot.gov/education/a...%20gallery.htm


http://www.pride2.org/NewPrideSite/E...ach091700.html


http://www.mahle.com/C125705E004FDAF...FJGYT089MARSEN


http://www.hornblowermarine.com/highspeed.html

Images above found doing a Google "Image" search:
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...-8&sa=N&tab=wi

I see no fins, wings and other aerodynamic control surfaces in the images above. I also do not see these type of control surfaces on hovercraft that use waterjets or water screw propellers and SES (surface effect craft) ships using water type propulsion.

If form follows function, then there must be a solid reason for this, right?

http://www.hoverclubofamerica.org/fo...opic=779&st=90
http://www.hovercraft-museum.org/vt1.html



http://www.hoverclubofamerica.org/fo...460&hl=surface

Apparently you don't know what "high speed" means, even after I mentioned 125 knots on the ocean, or have any knowledge of craft that displace less than 1,000 tons.

I wasn't talking about 30 knot cats.

I was talking about 150 knot cats.

[kach22i]

"High Speed" should be a specific standard, not one you just made up.

I'm no expert, but any ferry faster than a slow one just might be considered fast, I'll guess over 20 knots and do some reseach on it. Sail craft would of course have a different standard.

http://www.hornblowermarine.com/highspeed.html

* High-speed transport for U.S. Marines based in Okinawa, Japan
* IMO Type Rating
* 101 meter catamaran
* 970 passengers/236 vehicles
* First U.S. Flag car/passenger ferry
* Speed 40 knots

[RatliffFranklin]

Originally Posted by kach22i

"High Speed" should be a specific standard, not one you just made up.

I'm no expert, but any ferry faster than a slow one just might be considered fast, I'll guess over 20 knots and do some reseach on it. Sail craft would of course have a different standard.

http://www.hornblowermarine.com/highspeed.html

A little deductive reasoning would have suggested <removed> that since I brought up the example of the Sea Dart I must have been talking about boats traveling in the same speed range.

[kach22i]

SAIL:
http://www.answers.com/topic/catamaran

In the 1870s they sailed so successfully against monohulled boats that they were barred from racing. The modern catamaran, which averages about 40 ft (12 m) in length, has been produced since 1950. They are very fast craft, achieving speeds of 20 mph (32 kph).

FERRY:
http://www.answers.com/topic/catamaran

The Stena Voyager is a catamaran that provides a fast ferry service across the Irish sea. The Stena HSS is the worlds largest fast ferry traveling at a speed of 40 Knots

I think you may want to rephrase the topic to three point hydoplane to get to the speeds you are talking about, in that case, yes they do have wings..........to hold them down to the water and vertical stablizers.
http://www.end.com/~jynx/travel/thunderboats/setup.html


http://www.remote-control-rc-hobby.c...-rc-boats.html

[RatliffFranklin]

Originally Posted by kach22i

SAIL:
http://www.answers.com/topic/catamaran


FERRY:
http://www.answers.com/topic/catamaran



I think you may want to rephrase the topic to three point hydoplane to get to the speeds you are talking about, in that case, yes they do have wings..........to hold them down to the water and vertical stablizers.

http://www.rcboataholic.com/hulls/hullshydro.htm


http://www.remote-control-rc-hobby.c...-rc-boats.html

Didn't mean hydroplanes, <removed>.

Said cats.

[kach22i]

You have a difficult time explaining what you mean. Perhaps you should learn to be more specific.

http://www.nautica.it/info/tecnica/speed.htm

In offshore racing the catamaran rules and the racing boats in Class I are now reaching speeds of over 150 mph. It is a frightening speed where, when things go wrong, they go wrong in a big way, but the introduction of safety cockpits for the crews allows them to take the greater risks with a degree of impunity.

If you meant to say "offshore racing the catamarans in Class I", then you should of said so. Otherwise you are just wasting time.

Good luck with that attitude, say it to someones face - I dare you.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by RatliffFranklin

Isn't it past time for designers of fast cats to start incorporating vertical stabilizers, canard wings, and other variable geometry aerodynamics into fast cats? or V-hulls for that matter?

http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...rcraft/f2y.htm

125 knots on the ocean in 1953.

Nope, nothing about class I racing cats, just an old jet fighter prototype.

For the record, the Corvair Seadart:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...ce/q0190.shtml

[RatliffFranklin]

Originally Posted by kach22i

Nope, nothing about class I racing cats, just an old jet fighter prototype.

For the record, the Corvair Seadart:

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question...ce/q0190.shtml

<removed>

Maybe the fact the Sea Dart had aerodynamic control surfaces was a big reason WHY it could run 120 knots on the open ocean decades before offshore boats were operating in the same speed range.

You're a literal thinker.

Find someone who understands analogy to explain it to you.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by RatliffFranklin

Here's a clue, genius.

Maybe the fact the Sea Dart had aerodynamic control surfaces was a big reason WHY it could run 120 knots on the open ocean decades before offshore boats were operating in the same speed range.

You're a literal thinker.

Find someone who understands analogy to explain it to you.

It used a ski, why did you think it was a cat?

Maybe a jet turbine getting the craft to take off speed had something to do with it's water speed. What do you think? Do you want to cruise at that stability level for long?

Comp-1:
http://www.seaphantom.com/trials.


Comp-2:
http://www.marinelog.com/DOCS/NEWSMMIII/MMIIIJun10.html



The two comp's should not be taken as "literal".

[RatliffFranklin]

Originally Posted by kach22i

It used a ski, why did you think it was a cat?

Maybe a jet turbine getting the craft to take off speed had something to do with it's water speed. What do you think? Do you want to cruise at that stability level for long?

Comp-1:
http://www.seaphantom.com/trials.


Comp-2:
http://www.marinelog.com/DOCS/NEWSMMIII/MMIIIJun10.html



The two comp's should not be taken as "literal".

Everytime I present anything for comment on this forum outside of what people ordinarily think of as boats, I either get zip/zilch/nada OR I get some <removed> who not only has no clue about the subject but is completely lacking in the good sense to know when to quit talking.

http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art64.htm

http://www.americanjetcars.com/arfons/art/art61.htm

Above are some links to a high speed cat that was to have used a wing as a control surface.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by RatliffFranklin

Everytime I present anything for comment on this forum outside of what people ordinarily think of as boats, I either get zip/zilch/nada OR I get some <removed> who not only has no clue about the subject but is completely lacking in the good sense to know when to quit talking.

Gosh darn, you are living my life.

Stop doing that!

[RatliffFranklin]

"Maybe a jet turbine getting the craft to take off speed had something to do with it's water speed. What do you think? Do you want to cruise at that stability level for long?"


The domestic market for offshore powerboats capable of speeds over 100 mph is about 400 boats a year.

[kach22i]

Originally Posted by RatliffFranklin

"Maybe a jet turbine getting the craft to take off speed had something to do with it's water speed. What do you think? Do you want to cruise at that stability level for long?"


The domestic market for offshore powerboats capable of speeds over 100 mph is about 400 boats a year.

That's good information, not sure where you got it from or what your point is.

Let's say you don't want widows with lawyers sueing your boat building company, which design is safest for the beginner?

I'm still not sure if we are talking ski's or cats. Here is an idea, sketch up your idea.........perhaps it will be a wonderful hybrid; air tunnel cat with retractable skis with self leveling spring action for stability in turns. Maybe just a monohull with canard fins for stability. Just something to give you that marketing edge of being different yet qualify for being part of that 400 boats a year.

Give it a wack, I promise not to call you a *******, not for trying anyway.

An idea of what I'm talking about:
http://www.bugattiyachts.com/Bugatti...nced_Hulls.htm