Where does the responsibility lies

[ChrisF]

You are legaly listed as a simple employee and cannot be sued and held liable. This should protect your personal assets.

Unfortunately, I believe you can still be made personally a party to a lawsuit, if there's a question of personal negligence. They would sue your corporation, but also you yourself, and anything you own would be on the block. I'm not an expert, but this is more or less what my lawyer said. Incorporating (or LLC-ing) is still worth doing for the protection it gives, but it's not absolute protection.

I don't know what implications this would have for legal fees if you won and then declared bankruptcy -- it seemed a delicate question to ask my lawyer: "If you win my case can I screw you out of your fee?"

I will say that so far, the big and little boys I've dealt with haven't been at all shark-like. Anything but, so "constant fear" would wildly overstate the case, for me. But there have been some "uh-oh" moments that thankfully have not gone anywhere.

[D'ARTOIS]

The situation is worth than you describe in your post: I had some involvements in one of the top-yards in Holland. When a client came I was warned to be extremely careful with that particular person. First of all - never agree to anything verbal. Conduct your correspondence in writing and do not accept nor make decisions by way of conferences or other verbal means. I warn our clients in advance that nothing will be agreed on unless it is in writing and confirmed c.q. reconfirmed.
Start your heading always with SUBJECT TO FINAL CONFIRMATION if it concerns a propoposal or the like.
There are clients like the ones that caused the closing of AMELS Shipyard, USA residents, that are looking for trouble in order not to pay the last term. Or get rid of the boat if they cannot pay-up as happened with Amels vs Donald Trump before.
I managed a large yard in Groningen, Holland - about 100 staff, you could dragrace in our production hall - continuous 3-4 boats under construction.
The owner, the guy who did the contracts, often failed to keep records of what he was doing and/or agreeing on: we had just recovered from a tremendous loss on a yacht for a German couple, when a new delivery collided on a set of large lock doors due to a malfunctioning servo-control system to the machine room and the yacht hit the closed door at full ahead instead of full astern.
The servosystem was installed by a subcontractor who failed to accept any responsibility. De yard was held responsilble for all damages and due to the enormous damage on the locks and boat, we went down.

The Skandia case was a very brutal attempt to set the press alredy in the right direction when Grant Wharington wante to sue on the topic of "unspecified damages" - whatever that might imply.

In some Superyacht ads you might read sometimes "not available to US residents"

The whole juridical traject of the US is to many European observers a total mystery as well as the total absence of any uniform law system.
The whole TP52 thread (how many pages now?) is a rockhard proof.

The bare fact that Cyclops suggests the involvement of a lawsuit dodging lawyer indicates already the hopeless situation the law-situation is in.

[PAR]

Law suits are a fact of life for most business ventures. If the owner comes up with the fuzzy end of the judgment, he'll likely have to pick up all court costs and attorney fees, in addition to the fines and fees he's incurred in a fruitless battle.

If the judgment doesn't include this (most do, in an effort to keep plaintiff's honest) a suit can be brought against the plaintiff to recover the costs.

Personally, I think the "specified damages" comment is an effort to get into a civil court, where the rules of evidence are much relaxed. A criminal case would have to prove negligence and fall under much stiffer rules, where he'd have little to stand on.

It's probable that this owner is looking for a settlement, rather then a protracted case. Quite often, the pressure, bad press and economic issues can convince a not guilty party to settle. This happens a lot, usually for economic reasons (it's cheaper to take the hit, then wait several years for a finial resolution)

This may be a business decision for the owner and a reasonable one, if of questionable ethics. Lodge the suit and see if it scares the other parties into a quick settlement. A common business tactic, which can force the hand, of an economically disadvantaged, foe. It's pretty shitty business dealings, but we're talking about reasonably ruthless people here.

[cyclops]

My take on USA law is, It is the land of opportunity, if you are a lawyer. Our phone books have more lawyers listed than Smiths or Jones. America is paranoid, due to the legal system. In New Jersey the state held that employees could only sue the the company holding the Workmen's Compensation Policy, NOT the company. I guess you could counter sue that the owner never used the boat as stated in the contract. You would have to match him in attitude and drag the case out forever as a clever company. We Americans can have a "screw you" attitude, when our toy is delibertly broken by us and we do not want to pay to repair or replace it. MOMMY, MOMMY, I need more money to play outside. Spoiled children never grow up, they just look like adults.

[cyclops]

What we are discussing here is a reason I try to deal with children's programs at schools. When 50 kids and their teachers thank me for my efforts at interesting them in model boats, I get choked up with pride. I have had VERY few adults have the same effect on me. You get much more back by helping at a school program. Get a real life, start a boating program at a school.

[cyclops]

How many of us remember Mc Donalds Hamburger Chain going into Irish court and trying to get a life long Irish Mc Donald mom and pop hamburger stand to change the NAME of his business because they think they are the only ones in the world who can use that name. WHAAA, WHAAA. Where do spoiled children go when they are fully grown ?

[MikeJohns]

I dropped my insurance a few years ago after a masssive premium price hike and too much exemption in the small print.

Makes life so much more interesting!

Just turned down a contract with a large multihull fast ferry corp after winning the job! too many lawyers too much risk.

The best way is to get yourself on the payroll as a temp employee for those big corporations which they will do if they can't find another engineer.

In 20 years I have never had an unhappy client with grounds for a lawsuit, I have acted as expert witness myself, if you stick to accepted engineering principles and accepted scantling rules you are safe with the courts.

[cyclops]

Mike, you just said the magic sentence AND word. I..................................... Accepted.................courts. That does not and can never apply to any vehicle that is used in a competitive way. Hopefully the Supreme Court would just declare : If you want to compete and race, piss off, we do not have time for lots of bull **** and lies about your reckless playtimes. Next case.

[PAR]

You can't blame a person for trying. Who's the fool, the folks who bring a false charge against you in hopes you or your insurance company will settle or the folks that decide not to continue out of fear and offer the settlement?

Lets say the legal costs for bringing a bogus suit are $50,000 for the first round of filings and meetings. Your yacht repairs are $100,000 and you pick up a settlement after a year of negation with the insurance companies and lawyers of $125,000. Your $100,000 nut is now only $25,000. A simple business decision, resulting in a 75% cost reduction for the relief desired. Who wouldn't spend $25,000 for a $100,000 value?

No it's not ethical, but when have you known business to be anything other then dog eat dog? These are the big boys and they toss big shoulders and big money around like down linemen in the NFL. If you jump into a ring with a pack of pit bulls and haven't protected you're self from getting bit or at least be prepared to bite back harder, then who's the fool?

For what it's worth, there are just over a million lawyers in this country. There are many more red necks missing at least two teeth then that, let alone federal employees or NASCAR dads. Basically that boils down to around one in 250. Of the other 249 people, there surly will be found many more *******s then there are lawyers. It's just that they stick out more, because they wipe our asses as well as their own.

[cyclops]

Could we get the Supreme Court to rule like I hope they would? Or is that pie in the sky even if all- most boat manufacturers pushed a case that far?

[Alexph]

when something is raced its usually pushed to its absoloute limits and beyond yet all people want is super strong components with no weight whatsoever which is possible if they want to foot the bill for system designed with materials of titanium. unfortunately the world we live in is to sue anything and everything in sight