What design features make life aboard comfortable & practical for females?

[Paddy]

Originally Posted by Finlander

Ok, sure, that's a walkover design;

I've no objections to this design per se, being lower down is an advantage, and like you say it can be covered. However, within my 40' limit it makes for even less space below.

Re Wylo II

Originally Posted by Finlander

Is it based on a cargo sailboat?

It's probably already apparent that I am not hugely knowledgeable, and I'm not sure I know what you mean by "cargo sailboat". However it's a pretty volumous hull, long keel.

There is some info on http://home.iprimus.com.au/martinm13/wylo/index.htm, if you follow the links you'll find some shots of the hull, both dried out and under construction. Couple of pics from that site attached.

The one I saw in Ireland was a centre cockpit, with a passage either side of the engine room, either of which could be used as workshop. The aft cabin had my magic island berth, but the boat was being restored, so it was hard to get a clear idea.

[Finlander]

Originally Posted by Paddy

I'm not sure I know what you mean by "cargo sailboat". However it's a pretty volumous hull, long keel.

That's just a generic term that I use. Most of these Spray/Wylo type sailboats have a common workboat heritage--fishing for example. They'd empty their nets into the cargo hold. Obviously, they'd need to be volumous and buoyant to carry the weight.

Originally Posted by Paddy

The one I saw in Ireland was a centre cockpit, with a passage either side of the engine room, either of which could be used as workshop.

Unfortunately, that's the compromise: Walkovers have lots of fuel capacity and passthroughs have more interior space. I suppose one could lift the main cabin a few inches to gain more space for tankage though.

Passthroughs might also preclude having two forward-facing seats in a cockpit with bulkhead-mounted steering. Generally, I like having a steering wheel that's not in the middle of the cockpit, and it's also nice if two people can sit and look forward. I suppose it'd be possible to enter that space from the aft cabin though--it wouldn't be a true passthrough though..

[Paddy]

Not sure. Have you read Slocum's book? As a capable seaman he had a very high opinion of the Spray. So was he wrong?

Remember he was the first to circumnavigate the globe solo!

[Crag Cay]

My understanding is that Spray was all that was available to him, and he was a good enough seaman to get around the world despite the boat.

It relied on form stability and should be seen in the light of its era and his circumstances. I don't think it would rate as anything special on an absolute scale of all time good boats. It did tend to steer its self quite well, which when single handed allows it to be forgiven for a multitude of possible other sins.

The 'sprays' around today are a pastiche of Slocum's boat, and bear no more real resemblance to it than a 'traditional farm house kitchen' bears to anything that was ever fitted to a traditional farm house.

No inference can be made about todays 'Sprays' by relating them to the original. They should be evaluated on their own merits. Even the closest replica built recently that I know of at the Lowerstoft Boatbuilding school had a conventional keel and lead ballast.

[Finlander]

I'm pretty sure Bruce Roberts tweeked his Spray designs to perform better than the orignial. He's had enough time with them. Consider that most other wide-bodies are motorsailers or trawlers. IMO, the Spray is much prettier and possibly sturdier.

Actually, I think Slocum claimed to have rolled his, but the details seemed kind of murky--like he was sleeping at the time, so he didn't know for sure, or something like that. As far as I know, the Roberts versions are self-righting--I wouldn't trust any boat that isn't and I'm sure he wouldn't either.

They've got shallow keels, so they can go anywhere fin-keeled boats can't. But for better windward performance, bildge keels could be added. It might even stand without a cradle that way.

I know, bilge keels will reduce its speed. Maybe that's true for light winds. But in heavy winds and rough sees, it probably shines regardless. That's based on my experience with similarly proportioned sailboats (though none had bilge keels).

I've only read good owner reports about the Spray. Quite a few in fact. I have an open mind though. Has anyone read anything bad about them...aside from 2nd hand forum postings, etc?

[Crag Cay]

Exactly. You've got to appraise the modern versions on their own merits and work out if they are fit for your purposes.

Just don't make any assumptions based on Slocum's experiences.

[safewalrus]

Wilma

Going back to your original question, you need to remember a couple of points the prime one being that the majority of Naval Architects are MEN as are the majority of their clients! Men who go out on yachts are macho types who think its good to be wet, uncomfortable and down right miserable! With in reason you can everything you want on a boat just remember a few prime things - they jump about a lot at sea so everything needs to be 'tieable' down in some way, but most livaboards spend some 70% of their time in port (not all but most) so it makes sense to have it as comfortable as possible - that includes the extra room made by having a pilot/wheel house! go look at pictures of the majority of commercial vessels (sail as well as power) they all have "glass oilskins" makes sense! Ok so you have an outside wheel for the nice days and manouvering but in lousy weather there's nothing like a bit of glass between you and it (if you want to feel the wind open the door). Finally most boats try to get too many people onboard OK for day and weekend sailing but if your going to live aboard 73 bunks 0n a waterline of 10 feet just does not make sense - you won't get anything else in!

This will no doubt get a few comments from the 'experts' but it happens to be true (I've found it to be anyway) and hell I like to be contravesial (bit like my spelling)

[marshmat]

The Walrus is being serious?
And I actually agree with him.... shelter from weather = good, keep accomodations reasonable for the size and don't overdo it, think about how you REALLY use the boat and not how you think you might use it if you had this, or that, or a few more weeks vacation.

[CT 249]

I've never sailed a Spray, but Slocum called a craft of his "stout and strong......one in which we should not be afraid to trust our lives even in the storm....a craft which would be best adapted to all weathers and all circumstances........Seaworthiness was to be the first and most prominent feature" in this "most extraordinary sea-boat" which "finally came through the storm of breakers in triumph."

The quotes above, though, don't come from Slocum about Spray - they come from Slocum writing about Liberdade, a 35 foot boat often called a canoe but modelled off a sampan and a dory, which he sailed from South America to the USA with his family.

She was 35' overall, had just 7 1/2 foot beam and was just 2'4" in draft. Accomodation was scanty; just a tarpaulin covering the "hold".

While some may think this is a bit off-topic, the underlying point is that people - even in this case the SAME person, ie Joshua Slocum - can see merits in boats as different as Spray and Liberdade and therefore personal taste is surely all-important and no one sort can claim to be the only way to go. And if we take Slocum as an authority on seaworthiness, a shoal-draft canoe-style boat is "most extraordinary".

[westlawn5554X]

Quote by Slocum about "Libedade" junk sail rig: Her rig was the Chinese Sampan style, which is, I consider, the most convient boat rig in the whole world.

The junk rig is forgiving and a easy handling for couple or even a lone woman.

[Finlander]

Junk rig...

That's indeed a nice rig. I'm looking for simple alternatives for my project. An expensive high-tech rig is wonderful, but, for its extra cost, I could finance a diesel-powered trip around the world...not that I'd really enjoy the extreme of motoring around the world.

Slocum...

No doubt, we shouldn't base anything on Slocum's opinions; the new Spray needs to stand on its own merits, which either can or can't be verified by people who've sailed it.

Now, about those women...

IMO, discussing boat proportions is very relevant to the topic of making "life aboard comfortable & practical for females." It's equally relevant to talking about installing a big galley oven and spacious countertops. She can have the big galley--even on a racer/cruiser. But the question is: How will it affect the overall layout? On a racer/cruiser or other 'sleek n' modern' hull design, it might mean skimping on something else, like the workshop.

And, if you think the workshop isn't important to her, then wait until the greasy tools and parts spend a few days laying around on those countertops. That situation can be avoided more easily with a voluminous hull--perhaps a traditional hull like the Spray's.

But that's not to say a big 'cargo' style vessel is automatically the answer; she might actually favor compromising on interior room, in exchange for better light-wind and windward sailing performance. Hence, less engine time and faster light-wind passages under sail. The important thing is that these decisions are based on knowledge of the constraints and advantages of each type of vessel.

[Wilma Ham]

Wow, that took me a while to get up to speed with all the replies. To summerise some of the issues relating to comfort that people talked about:
ventilation on the boat seems to be important to keep it dry and the temperature reasonable when you are in the tropics. Is there a standard way for achieving ventilation in the boat by having lots of hatches facing the right way to have an airflow? Are there a lot of different opinions and options how to achieve airflow?
A venting hood above the coocktop seems a good idea. Away with the smell and the steam, but then again at home I have well placed windows to deal with that.
Storage: What I am on about is that there are some nifty solutions that makes use of space in a clever way, such as the slide away table. You don;t have to have that obstacle all the time taking up space when in port.
Are there not a lot more things that could slide under or over things to create more breathing space when in port. In an old house I had in the kitchen a shelf under the bench that you could slide out to cut things on. Why not have that on a boat so you can use that extra space when in port?
Drawers are the things you can stow a lot in and the stuff in them is easy accessible.
I think a good pipe birth makes sense too. And you could use those pipe births as extra beds when visitors arrive. Why not?
What about water makers? Are they not becoming more and more reliable and userfriendly and wouldn,t they give you lots more space. Just a little tank for emergencies? And they allow water for showers.
A great engine room with workspace is important, it means definitely comfort and peace of mind for everybody. Could the engine room not be part of the clothes drying area, wet weather gear closet, storage of tins and dried food. If it had more than one function, you could sacrifice other space and make it bigger. Some people had the microwave in the engine room.
Motion of the boat is a comfort issue, for sure. A beamier boat would be more stable and give more room.
And if you can be in the least moving part of the boat when you sleep and cook, that would be great. Centre cockpit/ pilot house is great for that or not?
Another point is, why would I be in a hurry to leave the ocean? Most people are talking about speed as if I want to go to places fast. I am not that interested in speed, isn't part of having a boat not enjoying what the boat does which is sailing? Sure, rough weather might get on my nerve, but a safe boat is made to withstand abuse and if I am prepared and have learnt to cope, I am sure I like to do with the boat what the boat is supposed to do and that is sailing form place to place. I don;t want to race.
I agree that women need to learn to be on a boat with confidence and need to be involved in the whole project and that is what I am doing.
I do agree that boats on boatshows did look good to me too before I was wisened up. It didn't take me long though to see the nonsense of a vase and the white upholstery for example. I think some education is required and taking time like I am doing to get to know what you want. And some sailing of course with people who are relaxed and are willing to show you the ropes!
Another thing is finding people to talk to who are not defensive. I have talked with women who lived on 32 ft boats for years and you have to be careful not to make them wrong or make them feel that you pity them. At least they are sailing and I am not -YET-.
I do want windows though, light and view. I do think it is how they are put into the frames?
Aluminium is great, no painting!! How is that for comfort.
These are some of my observations.
Wilma

[Ike]

Great synopsis Wilma. You are right about ventilation, but it is just as imprtant when it's cold because it reduces moisture and mildew collecting in the boat. A good designer can help achieve good ventilation with proper hatches and opening ports (which you do not want open at sea) but ventilation cowls and canvas over hatches to catch the wind are great as well.

A vented hood is good (sorry for the rhyme)

Storage is the number one problem on a live aboard boat and takes careful thought and planning. It also takes the courage to get rid of the things you really don't need. Have a yard sale and donate the rest.

Boat designers are probably the cleverest people in the world at designing drawers, shelves, tables that fold, cutting boards that slide away, and so on.
Yes there are numerous makes of water makers on the market. Whay's more amazing is that they work.

I like big engine rooms with work space. I don't know about putting the microwave there though.

Motion. Wide beam does not mean a more stable boat. That is more dependent on the shape of the hull, the displacement, the location of the center of gravity, center of buoyancy and a imaginary measurement called the metacentric height. However a good designer will have figured all this out in the inital design of the hull.

Absolutely. Women should be just as competent as men at sailing. I have known a lot of sailors many who are women and some of the woman are the best sailors I have ever known. One has even made history, so its all up to you.

I already said my piece about large windows on a seagoing boat. If you want to take the risk that's your business.

[Wilma Ham]

Thanks Ike.
I do agree that boatdesigners must be very clever to come up with a whole boat design that works and doesn't sink.
What amazes me though is that production boats don't show those clever designs. And there I would expect a whole design team to come up with the most wonderful and innovative ideas that we can all learn from. Such a shame.
Why not an airline seat that declines when passage making into a comfortable seat in which you can strap yourself into like on a plane? When you are clever with space, the space you lose is gained by the comfortable seat when in port and when passage making.
Another comment I think about is, why cater for a great crowd if there will only be some occasions that you have a lot of people inside, but every production boat has those terrible couches around a table. Some of them are round so you cannot even stretch out on one of the couches.
I made a comment before, production cars are changing because a design team thinks about things. Production boats show -and that comment has been made before too- features that look good at first sight to entice the buyer but are impracticle.
Another thing I would like is one wall all bench, for example the galley bench along one side and the chart table next to it so you have a long work space to spread things out and work on. I will have a center board behind my back to keep me from flying all over when at sea.
Then on the other side a long couch on which two people can stretch out easily, with a armrest like in the back seat of cars that you can put down if you want an armrest. These are just examples of how a change of space could creat more sensible work areas and seating.
If you have an island bed, imagine if you place it in scuh a way that you can pull out big drawers on easy runners under the bed. Imagine the space you gain in the drawers and the ease to get to the storage. Some production boats had the airconditioning unit under the beds. That can go in the large engine room if you want one.
What do people think of a huge engine room, instead of having 3 cabins, just have 2 and use the gained space for a garage?
I have seen small cabins with a toilet each, that didn't make sense to me. It is like saying you have a 6 bedroom house when you count every large cupboard as a room.
Wilma

[Wilma Ham]

Another question I have.
Why is the engine room so badly endowed with space? ? Couldn't it serve as a mulitiple function room like a garage at home. No billiard table though. Balls are dangerous . You could insulate it for noise and smell so why not have a toilet and shower area in there as well, for when you are in port?
Why not have some storage area too, a kind of cage for tins etc. I saw that on a navy ship and it looked pretty handy, it is dry and cool too, but not with the shower though. In colder climates you can hang your washing there and it means space to work around the engine. The ice box, freezer or whatever could be there. Just some thoughts, but as I said before I rather have a mulitple work room/garage than another little cabin. Wilma