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  #61  
Old 08-23-2006, 08:58 PM
Finlander Finlander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Ovenden
On that subject of pilot houses and windows a big difference should be made between the luxurious pilot house litterally part of the interior of the boat and the pilot house which could be refered at as a hard dodger and is seperated from the rest of the interior by a companionway.
Good point. In my case, I'm definitely talking about the hard dodger variety. Most production boats come with the other kind--lots of teak with light fixtures, etc--but those usually aren't designed to be ocean-capable because they _never_ separate the pilothouse from the cabin with a watertight companionway.
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  #62  
Old 08-23-2006, 09:18 PM
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westlawn5554X westlawn5554X is offline
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Ok, for window problem, why not have steel enforced pipe and plate that can be install during suspect of bad weather coming? The other unused window can be secure with outer aluminium plate cover.

I would have a outer parimeter camera attached to a flat screen 30' tv to clearly visualise the big picture than only a small window.

I think the spray is too old and seaspark is right about it. I would move on to newer things and shape for effeciency. However, Bruce Roberts does knows how to promise the customer huge living space in some of his design.

As for the cylinder circular kitchen would befit for charter purposes and not intent for long remote storm busting situation, I would recommend it until I make a prototype in a boat and try it myself in a gale situation.
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  #63  
Old 08-23-2006, 09:20 PM
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Ike Ike is offline
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Sorry to be the voice of gloom and doom. Having spent my whole life in the safety biz I have seen all the horrible things that can happen. These tend to color my outlook.

Just one last remark about windows. These modern marine glazings rarely break or shatter. What happens is the pressure of all that water simply pops them out of the frame. Marine glass and compounds such as Lexan are almost impossible to break under normal conditions. However the structure holding them fails and out they come.

Nuff said on that.

I don't particularly like the layouts of a lot of boats produced today. There are practical considerations though. Chart tables need to be as near the helm as possible, Galleys need to be somewhere where they are well lighted, well ventilated and where the person working in the galley can easily pass thingss to people both inside and in the cockpit. Also in case of a fire, where they can easily get out.


Think about berths. Where is your head going to be when sleeping. Is there enough room above you so you don't crack your skull when suddenly woke up in the middle of the night, and is the bunk where you can get in an out easily without having to crawl over a lot of stuff.

One of my pet peeves is engine access. Maybe this isn't an issuse from a comfort standpoint, but if that thing quits in a storm or in a seaway with traffic all around you need to be able to get in easily, not have to crawl in on your belly and feel your way around.

As far as cockpits vs pilot houses, I think at sea I would prefer a small self draining cockpit with some sort of canvas cover or dodger to keep out the rain and sun, that could be easily taken down. If you really got hit by a big sea or pooped by a wave the dodger would probably just disappear over the side. No windows blowing out or things crashing around. I get concerned when I see really large cockpits on sea going boats. These cockpits can hold tons of water. So smaller is better, with big scuppers to rapidly drain the water.

I also don't particularly like settes and tables that kinda of trap you. I would prefer some thing that folds up (or down) out of the way. You spoke of a centerboard. I've seen boats like than and the table is part of the centerboard trunk, When not need it folds down out of the way. I've also seen gimballed tables in the center of the saloon that folds up when not in use. Someone mentioned seats that fold up. This used to be common on a lot of boats. The table folded up or down against a bulkhead along with chairs that folded out of the way. In my motorhome I am right this moment sitting at a table that slides into a narrow cabinet on the wall. when not in use it takes up about 6 inches of space. You used to see such tables on boats.

I toolike to keep things simple. Everyone today have both 12V DC and 120 AC on their boats. Really the only thing you need the AC for is to run the AIr Conditioning. I would stick to 12V DC only. You can charge batteries with solar cells or a wind generator, or even a small generator driven by a free wheeling prop. When running the engine it can charge the batteries. No need for inverters or sophisticated electrical systems with transformers and galvanic isolators. No risk of shock hazards, lower fire risk. Everything you need (as opposed to want) can be driven by 12v DC.

I am a diesel fan. Diesel is available almost anywhere. You can use bio diesel. They last longer, are more reliable and so on. Yes they are more expensive, but worth it. No gasoline. The minute you bring gasoline onboard you have to start thinking about fire and explosions and all of the safety issues that don't exist with diesel. They have their own issues but the safety considerations far outweigh those. Plus that if you are in a cold climate you can run your cabin heater on diesel and you can run a water heater on diesel. Now that definitely improves your comfort level. Hot water for showers, cleaning and cooking.

This is great thread. It could become a really good lesson in designing a crusing sailboat.
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  #64  
Old 08-23-2006, 10:11 PM
Mikey Mikey is offline
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pipe berths

Quote from Toot
Quote:
And I suspect this may be a reason that they are not standard equipment on boats?
Pipe berths Are fairly common, on yachts specifically designed to be blue-water cruisers
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  #65  
Old 08-24-2006, 12:21 AM
Frosty Frosty is offline
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Ike, I dont think anyone likes what you have listed as your dont likes , but everything on your list is because of limited space.

How can you have double berths and walk in engine rooms in a 40 footer.

I have to agree all the same ,I hate those boats where you have to lift up the companion way stairs to get at the motor ,then you cant get out or in the boat. V drives are not much improvement as the stuffing box is down under the engine some where, this is more likely to sink you than any thing else. But if you've no space then you've no space!!

My pet hate is yacht manufactures--and English magazines reporting on boat tests using fish eye lenses to show V berths etc and iresponsably calling 35 footers 'blue water criusing' This is stupid those things can not and should not be allowed out further than the deep water bouy.
People will die thinking they have a Blue water boat --if they hav'nt already done so.

Oh please dont come back and say "i know some one that sailed round the world in a 30 footer' Maybe you do, but it shoulnt be sold as such.That is more a test of the sailor than the boat.

The sailors leaving Uk these days are nothing but frightening. I met one recently that had a yacht masters certificate, (This is staggering) he asked me what are the little numbers on the chart for???? He meant the depths, -------unbelievable.

He admitted to not even taking the test and had never been in a boat. Yet the certificate he had would allow him to charter a boat as I would not.

As far as 220 v is concerned NOt having it is old fasioned. 12 volt fridges are poor in comparison. You are thinking all yacht here, power boats are also very popular and have generators that are smooth and quite. Micro waves, battery chargers, computers> to mention some. Living in a boat with dim energy saving bulbs and no Tv or VDO's is a misserable cruising life and unecessary.
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  #66  
Old 08-24-2006, 01:49 AM
Mikey Mikey is offline
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Ventilation and heating

Wilma, if you are going to sail both Alaska and the tropics, then you will certainly need a good heating system and also very good ventilation. I wonder if 40 foot is going to be enough, you should probably consider 43 to 45 foot.

So many times have I felt “there is not enough ventilation in this boat”, not so much on sunny days although the insides of yachts tend to get very hot, but rather when the weather turns bad and you must hatch up.

Desirable and Undesirable Characteristics of the Off-Shore Yacht –Rousmaiere actually has a good section on ventilation, just about the only thing in that book that is really good, and you’d be surprised how much ventilation they recommend when sailing in the tropics.

Just a hot air blower as heater is not the way to go. You will end up with a whole lot of condensation. I would use a hot water radiator system.

Who would want to have a home with bad ventilation or bad heating? Spend some time with this, it is worth it

Mikey
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  #67  
Old 08-24-2006, 02:15 AM
CT 249 CT 249 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack frost
Ike, I dont think anyone likes what you have listed as your dont likes , but everything on your list is because of limited space.

How can you have double berths and walk in engine rooms in a 40 footer.

I have to agree all the same ,I hate those boats where you have to lift up the companion way stairs to get at the motor ,then you cant get out or in the boat. V drives are not much improvement as the stuffing box is down under the engine some where, this is more likely to sink you than any thing else. But if you've no space then you've no space!!

My pet hate is yacht manufactures--and English magazines reporting on boat tests using fish eye lenses to show V berths etc and iresponsably calling 35 footers 'blue water criusing' This is stupid those things can not and should not be allowed out further than the deep water bouy.
People will die thinking they have a Blue water boat --if they hav'nt already done so.

Oh please dont come back and say "i know some one that sailed round the world in a 30 footer' Maybe you do, but it shoulnt be sold as such.That is more a test of the sailor than the boat.

The sailors leaving Uk these days are nothing but frightening. I met one recently that had a yacht masters certificate, (This is staggering) he asked me what are the little numbers on the chart for???? He meant the depths, -------unbelievable.

He admitted to not even taking the test and had never been in a boat. Yet the certificate he had would allow him to charter a boat as I would not.

As far as 220 v is concerned NOt having it is old fasioned. 12 volt fridges are poor in comparison. You are thinking all yacht here, power boats are also very popular and have generators that are smooth and quite. Micro waves, battery chargers, computers> to mention some. Living in a boat with dim energy saving bulbs and no Tv or VDO's is a misserable cruising life and unecessary.

Where's the evidence smaller boats are less seaworthy, all else being equal? In several cases in ocean races (which are interesting because you can quantify the numbers of boats in each size range) the smaller boats have fared better. Yes, there was one instance where they didn't fare as well as the 40+ footers, but in that case the 35-37 footers did even worse than the 30 footers, indicating that there was little correlation between size and safety.

And what about the people who just can't afford a 45 footer?

Statistically speaking given a finite income, we're all probably much safer skimping on our boats to afford a newer, safer car, or going cruising younger in a smaller boat when we have fewer health issues.

I also can't remember cruises (or life aboard for years) being "miserable" because I didn't have a video or tv. Neither can my nephews.

About the Dashew book and windows. It's interesting that the Dashews make $$$$$$ out of selling their boats, yet their views seem to get more credence than those of a normal boatbuilder's advertisements or opinions. Why are their views any more believable than those of the guy trying to sell you a car? Sure, they experienced, but so are other cruisers (and boatbuilders) who hold very different views - and who are not going to fund their lifestyle by selling you their boat.

This is mainly a comment about the way we find editorial comment much more believable than advertising, even when the editorial is created partly as an ad.
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  #68  
Old 08-24-2006, 02:22 AM
Mikey Mikey is offline
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Where's the evidence smaller boats are less seaworthy, all else being equal?
Fastnet Race - 79, statistics clearly shows that knock down percentage was lower the larger the boat.

Mikey
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  #69  
Old 08-24-2006, 02:53 AM
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westlawn5554X westlawn5554X is offline
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Dont forget for motorsailer the engine room got to be cool as heat is enemy of long-lifetime for engine. Make sure good air flow in and increase the size of the engine room. My thought.
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  #70  
Old 08-24-2006, 03:15 AM
CT 249 CT 249 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey
Fastnet Race - 79, statistics clearly shows that knock down percentage was lower the larger the boat.

Mikey
From the RORC statement -

"strangely, the Class V yachts were not as badly hit as classes III and IV".

It goes on to point out that the death and sinking rate was better in Class V (about 30 foot) than in III (about 37 foot) and Class IV (about 34 foot).

Of course, as some analysis showed, because of the way the wind shifted and the fact that some classes had to beat for longer, there are many other factors than sheer size.

Hobart '77, '84 and '98 report showed no correlation between boat size and safety apart from the fact that maxis tend to be safe - but not everyone can afford an 80 footer.

I accept that these are racing analyses, however we rarely find 50-300 cruising yachts all stuck together in the same bit of ocean to use as examples.
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  #71  
Old 08-24-2006, 03:23 AM
Mikey Mikey is offline
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Quote:
"strangely, the Class V yachts were not as badly hit as classes III and IV".
I have seen the same, CT249 and I must say that it has puzzled me but nontheless, look at all the classes and the trend is very clear. Larger boat, lower knock down percentage.

Mikey
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  #72  
Old 08-24-2006, 03:27 AM
Frosty Frosty is offline
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'What features makes life aboard more comfortable and practical for females'.

That is the thread we are participating in. I have never mentioned safety as its not an issue here.

Small boats (under 45 footers) are not suitable for blue water criusing not because of thier sea ability but because of the comfort they misserably support. No woman wants to put up with small water tanks. no gen, **** in a paint tin mentality. Men niether if they would allow there wallets to agree.
I have met so many criusers who say 'Its just not big enough, it looked like it when he built it but we just cant carry enough fuel and water, we've no were for the dinghy, the V berth is crammed with sails, the decks are coverd with extra tankage. Outboard, 2 bicycles'

Then you've restricted your movement on the boat, and eventually its just not big enough.

As for not being able to afford a proper one --well lots of things in life are like that.
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  #73  
Old 08-24-2006, 04:03 AM
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westlawn5554X westlawn5554X is offline
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Well does female go only to toilet or would roll up slevee and try some hand on mechanical duty? Then the engine room would really hard to design as woman friendly. I think.
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  #74  
Old 08-24-2006, 04:09 AM
Mikey Mikey is offline
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Ventilation in the tropics

Agree totally with you Jack, and thanks for leading the thread back on the right track. Well, agree almost totally, 43 foot is my lower limit for blue-water cruiser

You have been living on-board for years in the tropics, your input on ventilation would be valuable

Mikey
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  #75  
Old 08-24-2006, 04:13 AM
CT 249 CT 249 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack frost
'What features makes life aboard more comfortable and practical for females'.

That is the thread we are participating in. I have never mentioned safety as its not an issue here.

Small boats (under 45 footers) are not suitable for blue water criusing not because of thier sea ability but because of the comfort they misserably support. No woman wants to put up with small water tanks. no gen, **** in a paint tin mentality. Men niether if they would allow there wallets to agree.
I have met so many criusers who say 'Its just not big enough, it looked like it when he built it but we just cant carry enough fuel and water, we've no were for the dinghy, the V berth is crammed with sails, the decks are coverd with extra tankage. Outboard, 2 bicycles'

Then you've restricted your movement on the boat, and eventually its just not big enough.

As for not being able to afford a proper one --well lots of things in life are like that.
Thanks for that, Jack.

I'll now have to go and contact some women I know who have been living aboard (one living aboard since 1985, cruising overseas full time since about '95 with cruises from the UK to Alaska, the Pacific, New Zealand; another cruising and living aboard full time since about '89, from the South Pacific to the USA to Europe) in boats under 45 feet, and tell them that they haven't been cruising, or cruising in comfort.

I'm quite surprised, and I'm sure they'll be shocked. After all, these are very intelligent women who are equal partners. They feel that their boats are extremely comfortable. They have written articles in major magazines, explaining how they feel their fairly basic boats (37 and 40 feet) are just right for them.

Is it possible, perhaps, that not everyone has to like the style of cruising that you happen to like?
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