What design features make life aboard comfortable & practical for females?

Discussion in 'Boat Design' started by Wilma Ham, Aug 20, 2006.

  1. djwkd
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    djwkd Senior Member

    a bed,for starters,think ablout the things you have at home,and imagine them on a boat,wil.l they be useful here?an outside deck,or top outdoor deck covered in soil to grow a few floweres (make sure there are walls so the soil doesnt fall out).think about what you would like (excluding a helicopter etc)
     
  2. yipster
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    yipster designer

    you can have it noisy but it reminds me of reading somewhere pc fans are quiet and low amp, chiep and at pc stores in all sizes, perfect for a boat
    now having that wireless i-net still keeps me thinking

    i mean the 12v fan on the processor not the loud and big AC thing in the back we hear
     
  3. Toot
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    Toot Senior Member

    In addition to folding chairs, I've always been surprised that boats don't use more collapsible items... like hinged tables that can stow flat against a bulkhead. When entertaining at home, I don't find it necessary to have one table for all my guests, just so long as the table size isn't so disparate as to create the appearance of a "grown up table" and a "kiddy table". An open table for 3, and two tables for 2, or somesuch could be MUCH more efficient rather than a full dining suite- letting you use the area for other things most of the time. And, besides, I think I read somewhere that a good host always has a couple fewer chairs than they have guests, as it encourages mingling. :) Besides, a boat is, by its nature, a relatively intimate setting... so why aim to entertain in high style if you don't intend to do much entertaining? Aim for having a few separate and cozy areas instead. You can decide for yourself whether cozy means 2 people or 4, it just depends on the size of your craft, I suppose. But the more people you can get comfortably tucked away in little corners, the more spacious the boat will be for everyone else. And this approach is a double-bonus. If you make small areas extra-comfortable, you will simultaneously be more comfortable when using those spaces alone. I've now seen pictures of settees, most of which seem to be little more than a padded cushion for a seat. Who really wants to sit on that? Scour furniture shops, maybe even talk to custom upholsterers about making seats that people (yourself included) will actually look forward to sitting on.

    Hinged seats that lay flat and create a cushioned wall when not in use. With a cushioned backrest permanently affixed to the bulkhead. With the seat, if you use a single-piece cushion, it will give it a very comfortable "organic" look when in use, rather than looking like you're sitting on a cheap padded bench.

    Now, if you want to *really* impress people, and of course, any adherent to the "lighter is better" school of thought will most assuredly scoff at this... there's a relatively new product out there on the market. Not for marine use specifically, mind you, but it's a 1/4" slab of granite with biax bonded to the bottom to give it strength. Normal granite countertops are an inch or more thick, so this thin stuff is signifanctly lighter- about 5lbs/sqft if my maths is correct. You just bond it directly to 1/2" ply. Yeah, that's still stupidly heavy for a boat, but I'd imagine there's a couple people out there who wouldn't mind that sort of a classy touch for a small countertop or even a table. A 72"x26" sheet is about $500 (and up, depending on rarity), IIRC and some of the colors/patterns are really cool. But the nice part about this is that the stone is almost damage-proof once installed- should eliminate the need for having a cutting board rattling around in a tight galley. Of course, edge and corner and backsplash pieces are available to finish it off.

    I don't really know what I'm talking about here, just a few observations...
     
  4. Texasgaloot
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    Texasgaloot Yacht Design Student

    Liveaboard

    Have you had the opportunity to peruse the extensive info at WWW.MACNAUGHTONGROUP.COM? The owner is a naval architect with extensive liveaboard experience.
     
  5. Finlander
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    Finlander Junior Member

    That's ok, I'll just build a huge granite U-shaped chart table across from the galley. That way the weight will balance nicely :)

    Sounds like interesting stuff.
     
  6. Toot
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    Toot Senior Member

    In the next couple weeks or so, I'll be installing a bar in my father's house using the stuff so I'll let you know how it works... He works with the company a little bit, so we'll be a bit of a guinea pig for it. I held all the different samples in my hands and they weren't *too* heavy and they were really beautiful too....

    It uses edge pieces, so it's not *quite* as nice as a solid piece of granite, but for the price and weight savings... well... it definitely would grab a lot of attention on a smaller boat and lend an air of permanence and solidity.
     
  7. MikeJohns
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    MikeJohns Senior Member

    I just posted much of this in the other thread on Size. http://www.boatdesign.net/forums/showthread.php?p=101578#post101578

    Underway at sea the front third of the boat will often be untenable for sleeping and the off-watch will need dark and comfortable accommodation since they are inevitably either asleep or in the cockpit (outside in the fresh air).

    When coastal sailing and sheltered water work is different and people often do things below but in the restless ocean fresh air is the antidote to seasickness so you need a safe comfortable sheltered cockpit, in the tropics it needs to be shaded as well with a good strong tight awning.

    Large sloping windows in armour-plate glass (I have had them) tend to fry you in the tropics and terrify you in a storm and are hard to achieve good privacy in crowded areas. They are also very heavy and still break from impacts. Good skylights are a useful way of getting light and air into the boat. I prefer smaller windows which if you consider your viewing angles still offer very good vision but are much safer and private. In a house the rooms are large, in a boat you are seldom far from the window and there are more of them.

    The Galley is the most used workspace on a yacht it should be close to the centre of the boat for comfort particularly since working with food can be nauseating at sea for the first couple of days, I think the Galley should offer a bit of a view and be in good communication with the cockpit. You must be able to wedge yourself into or across the galley. Large expanses are dangerous.

    A bigger boats allows a decent usable well placed toilet/shower, it allows some separate cabins, a decent galley and a dedicated dining living area.

    You cannot shower in a fwd shower stall at sea, we ripped our fwd shower out and shower in the cockpit. The most significant woman friendly device aboard is pressure hot water. This is the mark of civilised living as opposed to camping.

    As Murielle says she found out that traditional layouts are traditional for very good reasons, I suspect you alter the accumulated design wisdom of the years with peril.

    Above all before trying to design anything or choosing a size go and sail out 200 Nm and back a few times on different boats and see what you really think of the sea. There is no substitute for experience when it comes to interior boat layout.

    Cheers
     
  8. ChrisF
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    ChrisF Junior Member

    Hear, hear, Mike! A boat design is just one long series of compromises: every great improvement you make is going to cost you something elsewhere in the design -- count on it. Not that there isn't always room for improvement (or there would be no new designs), but it's wise to have a first-hand idea of the various prices you're paying for each innovation. Part of a custom boat designer's job is to try to inform the owner of the unforeseen implications of his requests, but ultimately, the owner's decisions have to come from her own understanding.

    "Improvement" in this context is highly subjective, and I can't help suspecting that the deeper you get into this question the less agreement you'll find among women as to what they want in a boat. Certainly, I've sailed with women who are gung-ho diehard racers, others who are tough get-on-with-it cruising shellbacks, and others to whom creature comfort is paramount. I think that not only does experience teach you the prices of your compromises, but also the values of them. Not just how to get what you want, but what to want. You may (or may not, I don't mean to preach unduly) find that comfort is not so important, after all, as compared to, say, the coming of a rosy dawn and the reawakening of life at the end of a long cold starry night watch in the cockpit.
     
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  9. Wilma Ham
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    Wilma Ham Senior Member

    I do agree that having good ideas alone will not work. I do like your practical experience Murielle and at least you think about things. It is about getting to know through thinking what is important, noise anywhere can be a pain if you want privacy. So true, you want it on the toilet and I think a noisy fan or radio is a brilliant idea, and you want it when you sleep or when you want to talk about the rest of the crew in private, so try to get it on the boat. First knowing that and then working on a solution I think is what makes your boat great. Murielle, because you think about things you have made a boat that was workeable and comfortable to live on and your solutions and explanations get my mind thinking; you make so much sense and encourages me to think even more. And that is what I am on about, think, share your thoughts and get solutions which might be simple such as the fan or more revolutionary , who knows. Some of my ideas, enclosed pilot house, although i get what you say about sensing what goes on. However fishing boatsd have a pilot house in which they cook, why should I cook below if i can be with the watchman while cooking?
    This is another radical idea, these days airoplanes have those longhaul beds that turn from seats into beds and you can strap yourself in so you won't fall out. What about a similiar configuration for passage making. Drawers under beds and I know that you have to find space to pull the drawers out, but drawers are so much more handy.
    About windows, commercial strength glass they make buildings with will not break, the frame in which the glass is mounted in might be more of a problem.
    About the heat, hatches will still provide airflow and shading over the whole lot can manage the heat in the tropics.
    Talking about junk rigs, my partner had a junk rig and he said they were the easiest sails to sail with.
    Another good thing is looking at using spaces for more than one thing.
    Lid of galley cupboards could be used for extra bench space, i still don't know how to put photoos in otherwise I could show an example.
    Finlander makes a good point with flexible spaces and furniture. Seats in buses and airoplanes are bolted but can be removed, why not have removable furniture. Open spaces at sea can be easily dealt with by collapsable rails. It means keeping your brain working when getting ready for sea by bolting things down and setting rails up, but that is something you have to get used to and my partner says boating people are far more alert and than people on land. When on land you become negligent and dumb.
    I do also think there is a great difference between a holiday boat and a live aboard. You put up with a whole lot more for only 4 weeks, when you live on it you want more practical things, such as water, hot showers, good dishwashing sinks, good beds eetc.
    My pet hate is the v birth. I could not sleep in them, I want to sprawl out and I don't want to climb over somebody to get in and out of a bed. Who invented those things and why are they still there?
     
  10. Toot
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    Toot Senior Member

    Pondering your question, I just had an idea!

    Want a nice homey touch? How about a water bed? Simply cut a hole into the bottom of your boat and glue down a large sheet of silicone in its place, voila! Instant water bed! :p

    Just hope it doesn't spring a leak! :p
     
  11. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member


    And who said there was place for revolution in yacht design!!:D
     
  12. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    Wilma - great to see that you're not just coming up with idea's without considering their implications, and cooming up with possible solutions.

    A couple of points though....
    Buildings don't often get hit by waves. If they did, you can bet your bottom dollar that all those nice big windows would get replaced by much small, stronger portholes!

    It's also important to remember that in developing new ideas you don't get so involved with the solution that you lose sight of the end result. Pretty convoluted statement I agree...
    IMHO, two of the greatest impediments to happy long term cruising are complexity and the need to always convert one thing to another. A good example of the latter is a settee that converts to a bunk. Fine for occaisional o/night guests, but not if you have to kick the better 1/2 out of bed each morning before you can cook her breakfast...!
    So whilst it may seem like a great idea to have loose chairs that need bolting down before you go anywhere, collapsible rails that need to be erected, etc, etc, the end result may be aboat that requires 2 hrs preparation before you can up anchor. Apart from the inconvenience, it can compromise safety too. When a big SW comes belting in unannounced and you have barely enough time to batten down the hatches, that last thing you'll want to be doing is converting your home from a floating condo back into a boat.

    Don't get me wrong, I'm not poo-pooing all your ideas. As I said, I think it's great that you are thinking things through. Just a suggestion that it's important to keep in mind what the end result is
     
  13. Wilma Ham
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    Wilma Ham Senior Member

    Okay boys, you had your fun!
    I quote Will from another thread "The only hope I see, is for open-minded individuals to custom build the 'boats of the future'.
    Note he says "open minded"!
    As I said before it is easy to get stuck in an opinion and causing closed mindedness, defensiveness and rejection. That is what I want to prevent as that will stop the fun and creative thinking. I do try to keep an open mind even if I might express some strong judgements about certain features such as the double v birth.
    However I would like to find out about births, who likes double v birth and why.
    I also would like to hear who doesn't like them and why and who has seen good alternatives.
    Wilma
     
  14. Willallison
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    Willallison Senior Member

    Ok - but you can't blame us for having a little fun...
    V-berths at sea are dumb. In fact any bed located far from a boats centre of motion can be considered a waste of space at sea. The reason that most boats have them is because few boats actually do go to sea and they are an effective use of what is an otherwise pretty awkward space.
    How easy they are to get in and out of depends on their design. For your type of boat (offshore cruiser) far better, I think to dedicate the space to lightweight storage. It can be partitioned off from the rest of the accomodation with a watertight door and as such then becomes a secon collision bulkhead / compartment.
     

  15. Wilma Ham
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    Wilma Ham Senior Member

    Hi Will, thanks for your thoughts and I know you are not out to poo-poo ideas. It is just that there might be solutions we have not considered and unless we dare to say what we think nobody can tell me that what I am thinking has some merits or not.
    I have yet to visit the company who is making the toughened glass but I am going to talk to him about the use of his glass on a boat.
    Below I have copied in some info on windows from Steve Dashew's website:

    "When we look at the window system, we do not want to have to consider putting on storm shutters in heavy weather. It has always been our practice to make the glazing itself heavy enough so storm shutters are not required. I

    So what are we worried about? Waves are not a problem. But if the boat is rolled, or dropped in a trough of a wave, the loads become huge.
    Once we think we've got those loads covered, we then look at the next series of risks. These come from impact from pointed objects. If the boat is being rolled, there is a good chance some of the gear associated with the two wing masts, radar, and antennae may come loose.
    There is also the risk of gear on the inside of the boat coming loose and impacting a window.
    Which brings us back to the window thickness. At the end of the day, Kelly and we make a decision like this jointly, based on our gut feel. We both agree that the Lloyds side window requirements are too thin to make us comfortable in heavy weather. We also know that to break out an 8mm thick piece of this toughened safety glass takes a huge amount of effort on the end of a 10-pound (4.5kg) sledge hammer (from Kelly's real world experience on that sledge).

    The answer for us is 19mm toughened safety glass for front and sides. This is a little less than double the required stiffness for the front windows (stiffness is a function of the cube of the thickness). For the side windows, 19mm is 100 times as stiff as what the rule requires. We know this sounds ridiculous, but it is impact from spars gone astray with which we are concerned. The weight penalty is around 400 pounds - 180 kg - and we can easily deal with that.
    If it turns out we want a permanent heat/UV reduction system, we'll have a film applied to the windows.
     
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