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  #211  
Old 09-04-2006, 07:22 AM
Paddy Paddy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilma Ham
And is gimbled furniture and galley workbench a silly idea? It appeals to me not to have everything moving under and away from you.
I don't think it's silly, but there are downsides, principally space. Look at the amount of dead space around a gimballed stove. It needs room above it, below it, behind it, and in front of it. If you make it the whole galley it's going to take a big chunk out of your interior space. Perhaps someone with more experience can tell you precisely, but at a guess I'd say for every cubic metre of gimballed space you'd need another 2 cubic metres of swing space. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more.

Multihulls may be a better way of achieving a stable environment.
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  #212  
Old 09-04-2006, 07:35 AM
Finlander Finlander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
Thanks Kristian.
I had been looking at Bruce Roberts' site, but I hadn't seen that one. Do you know is it a new design?
Paddy--

I don't know if it's new or not. I like the Bruce Roberts site because it's probably the most extensive catalog of designs and interior layouts online...at least, that I know of. I'm not endorsing the company though, because I have no experience with it, other than buying some books and study plans. Those were pretty good.

By the way, if you have storage space available, it's possible to get full-sized patterns for the interior. That way, you can build the inside, and then, when finished, buy/build the hull and install everything.

Consider that on a 50K hull with engine, etc, the time-value of your money is worth roughly 10K (at 9%)--enough to pay for a good chunk of the project.

EDIT: 9% over two-years; about the time it might take to build everyting: cabinets, nav station components, etc.

Regards,
Kristian
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  #213  
Old 09-04-2006, 07:38 AM
Finlander Finlander is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paddy
Multihulls may be a better way of achieving a stable environment.
Or just get a stable wide-hulled vessel. I'm the wide-hull preacher, if you haven't guessed yet
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  #214  
Old 09-04-2006, 12:03 PM
HawkeyePierce33 HawkeyePierce33 is offline
 
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Sell up and Sail

Dear Wilma,
I highly, highly recommend you read the book "Sell up and Sail" where essentially all the points that you bring up are addressed in tremendous detail (but also with great humor).
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  #215  
Old 09-05-2006, 05:41 PM
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Wilma Ham Wilma Ham is offline
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Thanks for the book title, I will look for it on Amazone.
All these comments are really getting the brain going and does give me more and more a sense of what is important to me.
If the boat is going to be my home, I start to get a feeling of resentment that I am giving up a lot of my precious space to visitors who might only come for a few weeks. So I think that I am getting less concerned about having permanent premium space for visitors, they are coming for a holiday so they can get a sense of camping in their quarters. I am living on it, so I want to sacrifice as little space to permanent features for guests. Sounds a bit mean, but I also realise you have to be real clear and not too polite if you want to make life aboard a pleasure for yourself. This is a bit against my female nature who wants to make things great for others, but so be it.
So where do I want to save space with what I learned so far?
Only one good head on board and pay for good sound insulation so nobody hears anybody else's business if that is what causes people embarrassement and deal with the smell in one way or another.
One good indoors seperate roomy shower, again well insulated and space to put your clothes in a dry spot so you can get in and out with clothes on if that is a problem. No ensuites.
That might give me space for a gimbled bench and stove, which as mentioned needs room to swing.
Good point about a cockpit close to the kitchen, didn't think of that. Having to carry food and drinks will become a pain.
So, now I am thinking about one good permanent cabin for the live aboards (me) and a minimalist but comfortable set up for guests that doesn't take up precious space permanently.
I thought if you have a guest cockpit, it might convert in a tent and sleeping quarters when having guests in warm climates. When sailing they can all cramp in the working cockpit or sit on deck somewhere. You need a higher toe rail to wedge yourself against. Just some ideas.
Or having comfy pipe births which leaves other space for storage of suitcases and clothes underneath. Or having a cabin which has a fold up double birth or has 2 airline type of sleeping seats in which they can sit during the day if they want to be in a quiet space by themselves. I can use those beds during a passage when we are on our own.
A wide hull appeals to me too as I think it will give you more inside room and more space for pulling out drawers and island beds because of the beam of the boat.
Just some ideas I got from all your generous comments.
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  #216  
Old 09-05-2006, 09:30 PM
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Wilma Ham Wilma Ham is offline
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So, am I mean and stingy to minimilise guest quarters and have them share a well desinged toilet and shower to add more space to the living comfort?
I have another question about comfort. How sound insulated can you make a boat inside and how much attention is given to sound insulation?
I know that sounds travel and when you have more than one layer, which most boats have, soundtravel will be stopped. However the ocean is very noisy and when in a storm I cowardly would like to get away from the thunderous noise when lying a hull or just when resting, knowing John will cope!
John's sister built a cafe where they have special sound insulated ceiling panels and it makes a huge difference to the noise level inside.
No boat brokers ever mentioned noise insulation, and not many boat sites mention that a certain area is protected against noise when on the ocean or in the head for that matter. I again think of Murielle's commment to make one area really comfortable and a noise insulated sleeping place while at sea could be one of the treasures to have. Any comments on specifically measures taken against isolating certain areas from noise to hide away sometimes and for privacy?
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  #217  
Old 09-05-2006, 11:58 PM
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Ari Ari is offline
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Noise insulation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilma Ham
I again think of Murielle's commment to make one area really comfortable and a noise insulated sleeping place while at sea could be one of the treasures to have. Any comments on specifically measures taken against isolating certain areas from noise to hide away sometimes and for privacy?
I had used foam to fill up gaps for insulation.On my boat every cabins have their own wall,floor boards and ceiling. They are actually built like having a big box installed in the boat, the space in between cabins and bulkhead are foam filled later. I had utilised this method before on smaller scale and it works very well.There is some type of insulation foam that can be used on metal surface without causing corrosion. Mainly this type are used to insulate cars that have very expensive sound system.
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  #218  
Old 09-06-2006, 12:10 AM
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Willallison Willallison is offline
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I'd say that the level of noise (and vibration - just as important) insulation is directly proportional to 3 things
Size
Weight
Budget

It's not common to see sound insulation - in the true sense - outside of the engine room. Designers of large, heavy and complex superyachts would pay a great deal of attention to ensuring that the guest and owner living areas are insulated from as much of the real going's on as possible.
Buy a 20ft runabout and I doubt you'd find any insulation at all.

Most cruising boats lie somewhere in the middle.
Remember that effective insulation is around 100mm thick, which doesn't seem like a lot. But if you have say 5 bulkheads in your 12m boat, all insulated, you've lost 0.5m of space - suddenly quite a bit.
Also, good insulation tends to be rather heavy and quite expensive. Not only that, your bulkheads would effectively have to be double-skinned, with the insulation - further adding to the weight, complexity and of course...cost.

It can all be done os course - it just depends on those 3 things - size, weight and budget

One other thing to consider. I always like sleeping up the bow whilst anchor, so that if the wind picks up I can hear the anchor moving and feel the waves. If you are too removed from your surroundings then disastrous things might happen whilst you're snugged up in your soundproof cocoon..
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  #219  
Old 09-06-2006, 01:30 AM
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Ari Ari is offline
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For small boat the main source of noise is from the main engine, for an inboard, it is easier to sound proof a small compartment rather then a bigger one.For a 20 to 36 footer speed boat, 4 stroke outboard engine is real good, very low noise level, there is no need for total insulation.Small size sail boat normally used wind turbine or PV cells to produce electricity.Small 1 or 2 horse power genset engine are quite easy to insulate.
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  #220  
Old 09-06-2006, 06:30 AM
Finlander Finlander is offline
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head layout

1 primary full head and 1 secondary partial.

primary--full
Choose a location for the primary head. The bow or a passthrough are your only real options. So, for example, let's say you choose the bow for your primary because it's farthest from the aft cabin and galley.

secondary--partial
Then install a secondary toilet in a passthrough. In fact, it can even be a portable camping toilet. But rather than making a full head, you can use the space above/around the toilet for a closet, that way no space is wasted. The secondary toilet only serves for 'special occasions' when there are guests occupying the forward area of the vessel.

That way, at night, they have their toilet at their end of the vessel; and you have yours Also, it's not a bad idea to have a backup if the primary toilet breaks.

Regards,
Kristian
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  #221  
Old 09-06-2006, 09:30 AM
M&M Ovenden M&M Ovenden is offline
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I really don't see anything wrong with having one head for all on a boat, many homes only have one. If four people have to take turns to use a toilette, it still seams pretty far from camping to me. Without being minimalist I find that needing two heads on a forty footer is quite elitist and actually weird. No matter what you want it to be like a 40 foot boat will always be a 40 foot boat, it is not a five star hotel.
If you want my opinion on what would mean comfort when it comes to the head, well don't waste space to have two of them, have one and make it nicer and a bit more spacious. Sure you don't need much space for toilette bowl and a folding sink, but having room to move around without hitting your kidneys an hips on the sink and do contortions to get by the door is really nice. Also cleaning a small room is more of a challenge then it mights seem and bit more space can make it a lot easier and way less frustrating. On the guest point of view, I surely wouldn't see as a bonus to have my own toilet if it's miserably cramped and would much rather get to use the main one. Be nice to the guest, share your nice accommodations, it's not all the time anyway. So now that you only have one head you can maybe also afford to make the shower a wee bit bigger, awesome!
For sleeping accommodation, don't forget that most primary sleeping quarters are not suited for sailing and a boat, even built for two, will normally have sea berth. That's were guest sleep on a tight boat. If you're on a passage, crew takes turn on the sea berth. On a boat that can accommodate more birth, it's not that much of a waste of space, it is class one storage area. Under the birth, is a great spot for water tanks or other stuff (always lots of stuff needing a place to live). On top of a birth with a cargo net can become extra temporary storage for a passage. It's never a problem to find things to store, more of an issue to find storage for things.
Keep something in mind when debating about guest accommodations, having it planned for extra crew is not only about there comfort, but still mostly about yours. If you don't have it set up to welcome extra people, they will take over your space and your comfort will go down below good. Having guest will become an unpleasant choir, which is a shame. Lots of great memories are when so a and so were over and you had such a great time.

Cheers,

Murielle
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  #222  
Old 09-06-2006, 10:18 PM
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Wilma Ham Wilma Ham is offline
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Thanks again Murielle for your comments. I do agree that making guest feel welcome is important but providing 5 star hotel accomodation is what we can avoid.
However the guest cabin can become a bit like having a spare bedroom, if you are not careful the whole room becomes a junk room and when guests arrive you spend 2 weeks finding a place for all the bits you put in there. I can see that storage under the bed for tanks can be great and is not in anybody's way and storing things during passages. But it requires discipline if the guest cabin is invitingly big to not stuff things in there when not sailing.
And I do agree that small places are terrible to clean, you cannot get at anything unless you are an acrobat and can fold yourself in half. So one good size head and shower will be it for me. And maybe a secondary head for just in case....

Ari, you mentioned that every cabin was built like a box which than could be insulated on all sides. Was the reason optimal insulation from the noise from inside and outside and temperature control?
I never thought of cars and sound insulation, interesting.
You all mentioned that the engine gets the noise insulation, which makes sense, but that is diufferent stuff then the insulation in the rest of the boat?
And Will, all that thick foam, is that both for temperature insulation and some dampening of the sound? I will start finding out about sound insulation on superyachts, because although they are big they will still have the issue of weight wouldn't they?
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  #223  
Old 09-06-2006, 10:31 PM
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Ari Ari is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M&M Ovenden
I really don't see anything wrong with having one head for all on a boat, many homes only have one. If four people have to take turns to use a toilette, it still seams pretty far from camping to me. Without being minimalist I find that needing two heads on a forty footer is quite elitist and actually weird. . So now that you only have one head you can maybe also afford to make the shower a wee bit bigger, awesome!

Murielle
In my search for boat heads/toilet, I had visited lots of luxury yachts,mostly powered. Even the one frequented by top political leaders and one of the richest man in the world (130 footer Heesen), have only one bath room for owner and guest and another one for the crew.
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  #224  
Old 09-06-2006, 11:25 PM
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Willallison Willallison is offline
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Ari - surely you mean a head for the owner and one for each of the guest cabins... I've never seen a superyacht with anything less....

Wilma - I was referring to noise insulation - though the same goes for temperature as well - the thicker the better. At least with temperature insulation the weight isn't quite as big an issue.
Yes - weight is still an issue on a superyacht - but as a percentage of the weight of the overall boat, insulation throughout would have a lesser effect in big boats.

Regarding your gimballed benches etc. you would reall need to have the entire area - galley say - including the cabin sole gimballed. Otherwise your bench would swing out and whack you in the shins every time the boat heeled. It would also significantly impact on the space available in the surrounding areas.
How about we suspend a cylindrical living space between the two ends of your boat - that way the whole of the interior would remain level, even if the boat did a complete roll-over!
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  #225  
Old 09-07-2006, 01:17 AM
Frosty Frosty is offline
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I think noises can be tolerated and can be muffled to a degree, But there is the issue of odours( we have to address this) ventilation is of paramount importance --and in the right direction!! There is nothing worse-- what a conversation stoppper!!

Of course you need 2 toilets. I have two on my boat and theres only two of us on it. There are times when both are in use. People have different toilet habbits and some take longer than others. Most toilet doors have vents in them I am not sure if this is such a good Idea for both reason sited above.
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